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R1a1 - Hindu Brahmins, Slavs and Ashkenazi Levites

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  • #16
    Spread of R1a1

    Originally posted by joinge
    R1a1 is rare in West Europe, but for some reason a lot of people in Scandinavia have this haplogroup. It is more commonly found some parts of Eastern Europe.

    I know that some Jewish groups have this haplogroup, but ironically, in west Europe the R1a1 haplogroup is called the Aryan marker. It indicates Viking ancestry in the British Isles. When found in Jewish persons, it indicates that they have ancestors in Eastern Europe.

    30% of people in West Norway and many people from Iceland are R1a1. This haplogroup can also be found in some parts of Ireland and Scotland.

    I am a Norwegian with haplogroup R1a1, and my family is Norwegian on both sides for many generations back.

    The theory is that the Vikings were R1a1, and their ancestors came from some other part of the world than the rest of Europe.

    When it comes to IQ, I think that it is dangerous to use DNA to classify one as more intelligent or better than others. We all know about the Second World War.

    Nevertheless, I did not have any trouble becoming a member of Mensa and do actually have a very high IQ.
    Hi there!

    Yes, I have caught up on research since my earliest posting.

    R1a is called the Aryan marker even in India which has got a huge diversity of genetic types. Some folks dont like it and there is a huge debate to prove that R1a migrated out of India, and not into A simple search will yield you some of these debates.

    I guess it has nothing to do with religion, but that all these people from Iceland, Eastern Europe and India arose from the same group in and around the Caucasian mountains. Looks like quite a few Ashkenazi Jews were actually from that region who later went to other places. I chanced upon some web sites which try to explain how the Vikings got R1a, or how they reached Scandinavia. Here is a web page that tries to describe how R1a ended up in UK from the Vikings.
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....lo_r1a_two.htm


    Personally, ...mind boggling journey to India!
    Last edited by R1a_M17_India; 10th October 2005, 01:55 AM. Reason: a

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    • #17
      Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
      Hi there!

      Yes, I have caught up on research since my earliest posting.

      R1a is called the Aryan marker even in India which has got a huge diversity of genetic types. Some folks dont like it and there is a huge debate to prove that R1a migrated out of India, and not into A simple search will yield you some of these debates.

      I guess it has nothing to do with religion, but that all these people from Iceland, Eastern Europe and India arose from the same group in and around the Caucasian mountains. Looks like quite a few Ashkenazi Jews were actually from that region who later went to other places. I chanced upon some web sites which try to explain how the Vikings got R1a, or how they reached Scandinavia. Here is a web page that tries to describe how R1a ended up in UK from the Vikings.
      http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....lo_r1a_two.htm


      Personally, ...mind boggling journey to India!
      read virgil's masterpiece the Aeneid, of the story of troy from the trojan prespective,. what happened to the boy in the movie with the sword of troy
      . then find out how did he wound up in britian and give london its first name new troy?

      Comment


      • #18
        Anything on the net?

        Thanks, is there any website which hosts this story?


        Are you too R1a, which part of Europe?

        Comment


        • #19
          virgil's masterpiece the Aeneid,

          just search
          Aeneid, by virgil

          and the history of the british kings

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi Jim,

            Are you suggesting that the true Celts are R1a instead of R1b and that these descend out of the Middle East (Hebrew or Chaldean?)

            Also, I know that most of the R1b Ashkenazi (I have seven in the Haplogroup base with one of them Levite) have been said to be converts but from the map I saw there also appear to be a number of R1B in Turkey?

            As well, I also have step mutations for two R1b from Syria (Arab).

            I think it is well to remember that ancient peoples grow and die out or move. Example is of the Samaritians of the Bible who today are only a couple of hundred but in the ancient days were over one million.

            Where did they go? They migrated.

            Anyway, your theory is interesting and I would tend to agree but it might not be just R1a1 but also R1b with all from R1.

            Since I am new to all this you can blow holes through all I just said.

            As for IQ, I do believe environment and social status plays a role. I am 127 which is ok. I think growing up in the tough neighborhood made me problem solve quicker.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by BlackWolf
              Hi Jim,

              Are you suggesting that the true Celts are R1a instead of R1b and that these descend out of the Middle East (Hebrew or Chaldean?)

              Also, I know that most of the R1b Ashkenazi (I have seven in the Haplogroup base with one of them Levite) have been said to be converts but from the map I saw there also appear to be a number of R1B in Turkey?

              As well, I also have step mutations for two R1b from Syria (Arab).

              I think it is well to remember that ancient peoples grow and die out or move. Example is of the Samaritians of the Bible who today are only a couple of hundred but in the ancient days were over one million.

              Where did they go? They migrated.

              Anyway, your theory is interesting and I would tend to agree but it might not be just R1a1 but also R1b with all from R1.

              Since I am new to all this you can blow holes through all I just said.

              As for IQ, I do believe environment and social status plays a role. I am 127 which is ok. I think growing up in the tough neighborhood made me problem solve quicker.
              http://members.aol.com/X288FILES/CELT.html

              first no migrating ,invading,moving group is all one halpogroup

              the keltoi were hebrew they started at the mts from assyria and settled europe just at the same time another multi million member force called kumri left assyria.

              that said they were separate tribes not the same types of people 2 were raised egyptian princes one was sold by the others lol

              i believed this pre dna and i see it supported by a base of askenazi. if you disagree more power to you.i believe in history. the real one not written by the winners.
              btw a roman historian said the babylonians became the romans by migration.

              whatever you believe you should keep an open mind and allow the dna to say what it wants to say. not support ideas excepted today

              Comment


              • #22
                Jim,

                I agree. I don't see how Haplogroups can really determine migration, identity or a "Jewish or Celtic People" since all of these European haplogroups have been in central Asia and the Middle East at some point in time and only differ in frequency per region.

                Of course, a example would be the blond haired Alexander the Great he could have been Haplogroup I but easily could have been J or any othe Haplogroup for that matter.

                I am simply trying to learn more about the region in regards to the European Haplogroups seen there whether new or very old and like you I am starting to lean to very old

                I believe The Celts (R1b most likely due to the frequency in the West) have been in Asia Minor and the Middle East for a long time. The Book of the Galatians shows that the Gaelic Celts have been in Central Asia Minor for at least that long.

                I will do more research and read the links you sent.

                thanks

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                • #23
                  Correlation between Y and mtDNA

                  I just received my mtDNA results, and was curious to understand what kind of mtDNA haplogroups go well with certain Y haplogroups across the world.

                  At first glance, looks like the majority of my ancestors migrated from the southern russian region to India, male and female! I would love to cross check this against some studies to understand whether certain Y and mtDNA groups migrated together, not just for my particular combination but across the world in general.

                  Any suggestions about some studies that I can refer to?

                  Thanks in advance

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    R1a1 Scandinavia/UK

                    Have recently SNP tested with FTDNA and am confirmed R1a1. I live in England. My closest haplotype matches are with Scandinavians, Icelandic, and some US people who do not know which country their immigrant ancestors came from. The very few English close matches are probably of Viking or Scottish Norse origin. My own paternal ancestry is unknown before 1868 and my surname is not matched to that ancestry.

                    It would be interesting to know at what stage in pre-history the common ancestors of Indian and East European/Scandinavian R1a's can be found. According to most accounts this is with the Kurgan people of the Russian Steppes. I match 11/12 with a Khan from Pakistan. Seems I am closer to some modern Indians than to many of the R1b's around me here in the UK.
                    Obviously my autosomal DNA will show descent from others on the various maternal lines who probably had R1b male parents. The big question is if there was a more recent migration of R1a carriers from the Steppes to Sweden say in the last 1500 years.

                    This is my first post to the forum. Hello to all!

                    Pat

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                    • #25
                      You might be interested in early accounts of the rus[vikings] and slavs:

                      I saw the Rūsiyyah when they had arrived on their trading expedition[10] and had disembarked at the River Ātil.[11] I have never seen more perfect physiques than theirs—they are like palm trees,[12] are fair and reddish,[13] and do not wear the qurṭaq or the caftan. The man wears a cloak with which he covers one half of his body, leaving one of his arms uncovered.[14] Every one of [6] them carries an axe,[15] a sword and a dagger.

                      They are the filthiest of all Allāh’s creatures: they do not clean themselves after excreting or urinating or wash themselves when in a state of ritual impurity (i.e., after coitus) and do not <even> wash their hands after food.[23] [8] Indeed they are like asses that roam <in the fields>.

                      They arrive from their territory (min baladi-him) and moor their boats by the Ātil (a large river), building on its banks large wooden houses.[24] They [9] gather in the one house in their tens and twenties, sometimes more, sometimes less. Each of them has a couch on which he sits. They are accompanied by beautiful slave girls[slavs] for trading. One man will have intercourse with his slave-girl [slavs] while his companion looks on. Sometimes a group of them comes together to do this, each in front of the other. Sometimes indeed the merchant will come in to buy a slave-girl from one of them and he will chance upon him having intercourse with her, but <the Rūs> will not leave her alone until he has satisfied his urge. They cannot, of course, avoid washing their faces and their heads each day, which they do with the filthiest and most polluted water imaginable. I shall explain. Every day the slave-girl arrives in the morning with a large basin containing water, which she hands to her owner. He washes his hands and his face and his hair in the water, then he dips his comb in the water and brushes his hair, blows his nose and spits in the basin. There is no filthy impurity which he will not do in this water. When he no longer requires it, the slave-girl takes the basin to the man beside him and he goes through the same routine as his friend. She continues to carry it from one man to the next until she has gone round everyone in the house, with each of them blowing his nose and spitting, washing his face and hair in the basin.[25]


                      http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/classes/pritsak.html
                      http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm

                      I think it explains why eastern europeans/slavs and some scandinavians share
                      R1a.

                      Also the Kurgan Woman of the Pazryrk [Ice maiden]
                      who was found in 1993 wearing "indian" silk and blue tatoos similar to those worn by the Celts/Rus/Sembians/Ancient prussians etc they assert from her wearing "wild indian silk" that kurgan groups were trading in India.

                      http://www.geocities.com/mary_lynn_e...arch-Paper.htm

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
                        I just received my mtDNA results, and was curious to understand what kind of mtDNA haplogroups go well with certain Y haplogroups across the world.
                        Invading or migrating peoples, if technologically more advanced (use of horse, iron, etc), are bound to have social and cultural dominance over locals. This prowess of the 'outsiders' also manifests itself in the mating field, whereby outside males (Alpha males?) take local women at the expense of local males. The local women also find this upward social mobility quite to their benefit. With this short preamble, let us look at the mtDNA composition versus Y-DNA composition of South Asia at large.

                        R1a1 is the only significant Eurasian Y-DNA Haplogroup in India with an incidence of 16% in India, rising to 25% in Pakistan. Correspondingly, Eurasian mtDNA Haplogroups do not reach anywhere close to two-figure incidence except in Indian Punjab (18%) whilst in Pakistan, on the whole there is a greater representation of these (as high as 50%, but generally around 35-40%). The Indian composition of Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups includes U1, U4, U5, HV, T, J, N1, X while that of Pakistan inludes all of the preceding, plus W and H.

                        If one were to go by the 'birds of a feather flock together' dictum, then R1a1 males would possibly choose Eurasian females in general (though a haplogroup-wise distribution begs a detailed study for the time being). As for the dominant 'invaders' prefering local women, there was a vast 'menu' to choose from; this would include M*, M2, M3, M5, U2i, U7, R*.

                        From the point of view of a sociological study, one would much rather see a 'paired' survey of mates ie, Y-DNA and corresponding mtDNA but unfortunately, such studies have, somehow, not found favour with population geneticists. On a personal note, I find my South Asian R2 patriline linked up with a rare Anatolian-Caucasaus J2 matriline quite intriguing. Did R2 males pass by Anatolia-Caucasus region some time in the ancient past? Or, did J2 women, during the Neolithic expansion, end up in what is now Pakistan and got chosen/taken by local males? A 'paired' study of mates could help, I guess.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by katiecarol
                          http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm

                          I think it explains why eastern europeans/slavs and some scandinavians share
                          R1a.
                          No, it does not, as your own source makes clear.

                          First, your source most certainly does not equate slave girls with Slavs. It is arguably true that in western or southern Europe, the word 'slave' came from 'Slav', but that has nothing to do with Arabic. The source you cite uses the term 'slave-girl', and you should have left it thus without adding an incorrect editorial comment.

                          Second, your source clearly says:
                          ---
                          I am not convinced that by Rūs/Rūsiyyah our text means either the Vikings or the Russians specifically.
                          ---

                          Ironically, his own reference to 'Russians' is anachronistic--a more correct term would be 'eastern Slav'.

                          Third, even your postulated relations between Viking warriors and Slavic slave girls would not explain the R1a1 in Scandinavia, which remains anomalous. Rather, it could explain the I1a in Ukraine.

                          Your source approvingly quotes Dolukhanov:
                          ---
                          The Varangians were rapidly incorporated into the Slav élite, acquiring Slavic names, language and habits, and losing the remains of their Scandinavian identity.
                          ---

                          This would indeed be a reasonable explanation for any Scandinavian-looking I1a we might find in Ukraine.
                          Last edited by lgmayka; 5th June 2007, 12:53 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
                            I am a Hindu Brahmin from South India (The 'highest' caste in the Hindu system). I belong to the R1a1 haplogroup. The geneographic project traced my origin to Central Asia (Ukraine or thereabouts). I am surprised to see so many Slavs and Ashkenazi Levite folks also to be of the same group. I assume our ancestors were Central Asians who went separate ways and religions. I would be interested in knowing if anybody has more information along this line.

                            Is there anyway if we can test whether our maternal lines are also similar??

                            Finally about IQ. I read that Ashkenazi Levites have the highest average IQ in the world. It is a given fact that Brahmins have the highest IQ in India (though this group has not be tested on an average basis to compare to worldwide statistics) and Brahmins also do well in academics in India, USA etc. Do you think this is something to do with the R1a1 haplogroup?
                            Hi R1a_m17_India: It was my understanding that R1a marker was most common among Kashmiris, UP Muslims of India and Pathans of Pakistan. I think, in Europe, it is common among populations of Poland and Eastern European countries. In addition, it is my understanding that this marker is not limited to upper caste and non tribals of India. I think it was the J2a sublcade that was exclusive to upper caste Hindus. Coincidentally, J2a is also common among and Ashkenazi Jews and non Jewish Europeans.

                            regards,

                            bob

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
                              At first glance, looks like the majority of my ancestors migrated from the southern russian region to India, male and female!
                              What's your HVS sequence? First, you may have close matches in India and Iran, no need in "Aryans" from Russia.

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                              • #30
                                The Arabian traveller, Ibn Fadlan, who visited Volga Bulgaria in 922, described the Rus (Rusiyyah) in the terms strongly suggestive of the Norsemen,but I agree with you that we do not know which group they were from.But they have since been associated with the swedes/vikings [ F. Donald Logan (The Vikings in History, cit. Montgomery, p. 24), "in 839, the Rus' were Swedes. In 1043, the Rus' were Slavs.]

                                You are correct about the use of "Saqaliba" (Arabic: صقالبة) but it does refer overwhelming to slavic women, but also slaves in the medieval Arab world and other types of people the source was right in calling them slave-girls instead in other translations of that text they are simply called slavs.
                                Last edited by katiecarol; 6th June 2007, 09:22 PM.

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