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**Taz85** · 26 December 2012, 08:48 PM

Pretty much anything at 1% is noise. Unless you have known ancestry from that area
Even 2% could be considered as noise. The Jewish/ME is very typical for someone who is southern Italian.

**Bartot** · 26 December 2012, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Andiralenira View Post

I ran my FTDNA results through all of the calculators at Gedmatch, including MDLP-22. I see some unusual results which I don't quite understand.

My Gedmatch kit number is FN101587.

Dr. MacDonald gave my results as the following:

Most likely fit is 99.1% (+- 0.6%) Europe (all Southeast Europe)
and 0.9% (+- 0.6%) Africa (various subcontinents)

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
Romania= 0.982 T-Ethiop= 0.018
Romania= 0.982 A-Ethiop= 0.018
Romania= 0.987 O-Ethiop= 0.013
Romania= 0.992 Mandenka= 0.008
Romania= 0.993 Yoruba= 0.007
Romania= 0.991 Maasai= 0.009
Romania= 0.993 Bantu Ke= 0.007
Romania= 0.995 Bantu So= 0.005
Romania= 0.999 Biaka Py= 0.001
Romania= 1.000 Mbuti Py= 0.000
Second most likely fit is 69.6% (+- 21.4%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 30.4% (+- 21.4%) Mideast (various subcontinents)

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
Hungary= 0.641 Jewish= 0.359
Romania= 0.959 Moroccan= 0.041
Hungary= 0.710 Cypriot= 0.290
Romania= 0.968 Mozabite= 0.032
Lithuani= 0.393 Jewish= 0.607
Irish= 0.503 Jewish= 0.497

I think that this is in fact Romanian. The special scatter plot with Jewish at top
essentially eliminates that Jewish posibilities in the list.

Doug McDonald

FTDNA says 67.41% European (French, Spanish, Orcadian), 32.59% Middle Eastern (Adygei)

AncestryDNA says 40% Central European, 24% Eastern European, 18% Persian/Turkish/Caucasus, 10% Southern European, 8% Middle Eastern

Known documented ancestry: 50% Southern Italian, 25% Polish, 25% Irish.

The MDLP calculator shows small amounts of ancestry for which I have no known documentation of family knowledge.

MDLP-22 results:

Population
Pygmy -
West-Asian 15.44%
North-European-Mesolithic 0.80%
Indo-Tibetan -
Mesoamerican -
Arctic-Amerind 0.89%
South-America_Amerind -
Indian -
North-Siberean -
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 33.00%
Samoedic -
Indo-Iranian 1.06%
East-Siberean -
North-East-European 37.35%
South-African -
North-Amerind 0.27%
Sub-Saharian 0.30%
East-South-Asian -
Near_East 9.98%
Melanesian 0.92%
Paleo-Siberian -
Austronesian -

The European and Middle Eastern results are not a surprise: they show up in every test and calculator I have used.

What I don't understand is the results show East Asian and Amerindian ancestry. I have no known ancestry from East Asia nor has there ever been any mention of Native American ancestry so I am not sure why this shows up. I am confused as to why I see this in the chromosome painting.

MDLP-22 option 2 for you, states

Best Population Fit (Pct. Option 2):

1 Bulgarian 75.29%
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 6.24%
3 North-East-European 5.56%
4 Kurd 5.55%
5 Yemen 2.08%
6 Latvian_V 2.00%
7 Arctic-Amerind 1.09%
8 Belarusian 1.09%
9 Bra2 1.09%
10 Iranian 0.01%

and option 1
Best Population Fit (Pct. Option 1):

1 Bulgarian 95.67%
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 1.10%
3 Greek_Azov 0.52%
4 Bra2 0.50%
5 Cirkassian 0.48%
6 Arctic-Amerind 0.46%
7 Kalash 0.40%
8 Melanesian 0.39%
9 Lumbee 0.34%
10 Greek_North 0.14%

Bulgarian in these options and Romanian in your other options, both are ancient thracian people IF your line was there pre the roman times, if not then the bulgars where an elite small turkic group who took over the thracian odyssian tribes in the early middleages, while the romanians could be dacian or getae thracians depending if you where by the black sea or not.
If your line is not that old, it would be surplanted southern italians because the bulk of Roman soldiers in the balkans ( romania, albania and greece ) came from the south of Italy.

**Andiralenira** · 26 December 2012, 09:02 PM

Ok, gotcha. Have you read about Dodecad's D-Statistics on Admixture Components? This post of his addresses the question of a lot of people asking if low levels of admixture being noise or actual ancestry, I found it to be very interesting and ran my results to see what would turn up. I still don't understand everything, but it showed some interesting things.

**Andiralenira** · 26 December 2012, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Bartot View Post

MDLP-22 option 2 for you, states

Best Population Fit (Pct. Option 2):

1 Bulgarian 75.29%
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 6.24%
3 North-East-European 5.56%
4 Kurd 5.55%
5 Yemen 2.08%
6 Latvian_V 2.00%
7 Arctic-Amerind 1.09%
8 Belarusian 1.09%
9 Bra2 1.09%
10 Iranian 0.01%

and option 1
Best Population Fit (Pct. Option 1):

1 Bulgarian 95.67%
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 1.10%
3 Greek_Azov 0.52%
4 Bra2 0.50%
5 Cirkassian 0.48%
6 Arctic-Amerind 0.46%
7 Kalash 0.40%
8 Melanesian 0.39%
9 Lumbee 0.34%
10 Greek_North 0.14%

Bulgarian in these options and Romanian in your other options, both are ancient thracian people IF your line was there pre the roman times, if not then the bulgars where an elite small turkic group who took over the thracian odyssian tribes in the early middleages, while the romanians could be dacian or getae thracians depending if you where by the black sea or not.
If your line is not that old, it would be surplanted southern italians because the bulk of Roman soldiers in the balkans ( romania, albania and greece ) came from the south of Italy.

Intriguing.....hmm.....

**Andiralenira** · 26 December 2012, 10:01 PM

Here are my DIYDodecad globe13 results, and the D-Statistics for my main two populations:

----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

0.02% Siberian
0.02% Amerindian
0.23% West_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
10.32% Southwest_Asian
0.27% East_Asian
32.97% Mediterranean
0.21% Australasian
1.16% Arctic
16.71% West_Asian
37.62% North_European
0.01% South_Asian
0.46% East_African

[101,] "North_European" "Siberian" "Palaeo_African" "0.0156" "6.45"
[102,] "North_European" "Amerindian" "Palaeo_African" "0.0226" "8.62"
[103,] "North_European" "West_African" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00197" "-1.51"
[104,] "North_European" "Southwest_Asian" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00533" "-2.4"
[105,] "North_European" "East_Asian" "Palaeo_African" "0.01142" "4.92"
[106,] "North_European" "Mediterranean" "Palaeo_African" "-0.01084" "-4.94"
[107,] "North_European" "Australasian" "Palaeo_African" "0.00983" "3.61"
[108,] "North_European" "Arctic" "Palaeo_African" "0.01884" "7.41"
[109,] "North_European" "West_Asian" "Palaeo_African" "0.00897" "4.25"
[110,] "North_European" "South_Asian" "Palaeo_African" "0.01301" "5.89"
[111,] "North_European" "East_African" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00267" "-1.71"

[57,] "Mediterranean" "Siberian" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00708" "-2.87"
[58,] "Mediterranean" "Amerindian" "Palaeo_African" "-0.01574" "-5.82"
[59,] "Mediterranean" "West_African" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00071" "-0.54"
[60,] "Mediterranean" "Southwest_Asian" "Palaeo_African" "0.0102" "4.68"
[61,] "Mediterranean" "East_Asian" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00694" "-2.9"
[62,] "Mediterranean" "Australasian" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00486" "-1.79"
[63,] "Mediterranean" "Arctic" "Palaeo_African" "-0.01514" "-5.89"
[64,] "Mediterranean" "West_Asian" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00955" "-4.29"
[65,] "Mediterranean" "North_European" "Palaeo_African" "-0.0127" "-5.74"
[66,] "Mediterranean" "South_Asian" "Palaeo_African" "-0.00151" "-0.67"
[67,] "Mediterranean" "East_African" "Palaeo_African" "0.00524" "3.32"

**Táltos** · 26 December 2012, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by Andiralenira View Post

I ran my FTDNA results through all of the calculators at Gedmatch, including MDLP-22. I see some unusual results which I don't quite understand.

My Gedmatch kit number is FN101587.

Dr. MacDonald gave my results as the following:

Most likely fit is 99.1% (+- 0.6%) Europe (all Southeast Europe)
and 0.9% (+- 0.6%) Africa (various subcontinents)

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
Romania= 0.982 T-Ethiop= 0.018
Romania= 0.982 A-Ethiop= 0.018
Romania= 0.987 O-Ethiop= 0.013
Romania= 0.992 Mandenka= 0.008
Romania= 0.993 Yoruba= 0.007
Romania= 0.991 Maasai= 0.009
Romania= 0.993 Bantu Ke= 0.007
Romania= 0.995 Bantu So= 0.005
Romania= 0.999 Biaka Py= 0.001
Romania= 1.000 Mbuti Py= 0.000
Second most likely fit is 69.6% (+- 21.4%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 30.4% (+- 21.4%) Mideast (various subcontinents)

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
Hungary= 0.641 Jewish= 0.359
Romania= 0.959 Moroccan= 0.041
Hungary= 0.710 Cypriot= 0.290
Romania= 0.968 Mozabite= 0.032
Lithuani= 0.393 Jewish= 0.607
Irish= 0.503 Jewish= 0.497

I think that this is in fact Romanian. The special scatter plot with Jewish at top
essentially eliminates that Jewish posibilities in the list.

Doug McDonald

FTDNA says 67.41% European (French, Spanish, Orcadian), 32.59% Middle Eastern (Adygei)

AncestryDNA says 40% Central European, 24% Eastern European, 18% Persian/Turkish/Caucasus, 10% Southern European, 8% Middle Eastern

Known documented ancestry: 50% Southern Italian, 25% Polish, 25% Irish.

The MDLP calculator shows small amounts of ancestry for which I have no known documentation of family knowledge.

MDLP-22 results:

Population
Pygmy -
West-Asian 15.44%
North-European-Mesolithic 0.80%
Indo-Tibetan -
Mesoamerican -
Arctic-Amerind 0.89%
South-America_Amerind -
Indian -
North-Siberean -
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 33.00%
Samoedic -
Indo-Iranian 1.06%
East-Siberean -
North-East-European 37.35%
South-African -
North-Amerind 0.27%
Sub-Saharian 0.30%
East-South-Asian -
Near_East 9.98%
Melanesian 0.92%
Paleo-Siberian -
Austronesian -

The European and Middle Eastern results are not a surprise: they show up in every test and calculator I have used.

What I don't understand is the results show East Asian and Amerindian ancestry. I have no known ancestry from East Asia nor has there ever been any mention of Native American ancestry so I am not sure why this shows up. I am confused as to why I see this in the chromosome painting.

Andiralenira I am not an expert. BUT this is what bothers me. All of your known documented ancestry pretty much seems to be ignored by Dr. McDonald. How the heck he figures you to be a Romanian is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong a lot of people swear by him, and he is a very generous man doing what he does for all of us. I just don't think this seems right. I think you are pretty mixed in your European heritage and this might make the results not seem right. Believe me I have the same problem!

**mixedkid** · 27 December 2012, 12:32 AM

Some thoughts on a few of the issues you have brought up:

(1) Your known Italian can be seen in Ancestry's Southern European and Middle Eastern.

(2) Your known Polish can be seen in Ancestry's Eastern European.

(3) Remember that for a good part of its history, Poland was a large, multi-ethnic, multi-language, multi-religious nation-state. With some mention of the Caucasus in your post, I am reminded that at one time, Poland itself had a fairly large Armenian religious-ethnic minority.

(4) Your known Irish might be coming up in FamilyFinder's Orcadian category.

(5) I am very suspicious of the term "noise." If your ancestry is somehow connected to the colonial powers, the possibility always exists that the small segments of Native American ancestry that comes up through various calculators are, in fact, real -- though probably representative of a fairly distant ancestor -- as well as back-migration to Europe and subsequent second migration of descendants to the New World.

(6) I believe Family FInder found French for you as well. Your known connection to Ireland might help explain that. Ireland was one of the places where French Acadian catholic deportees from North America were resettled, just prior to the American Revolution. Any Acadian connection might also help explain your Native American chromosome segments.

**Andiralenira** · 27 December 2012, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by 1796 View Post

Andiralenira I am not an expert. BUT this is what bothers me. All of your known documented ancestry pretty much seems to be ignored by Dr. McDonald. How the heck he figures you to be a Romanian is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong a lot of people swear by him, and he is a very generous man doing what he does for all of us. I just don't think this seems right. I think you are pretty mixed in your European heritage and this might make the results not seem right. Believe me I have the same problem!

First of all, I'd like to say to everyone responding to this thread, you have all been so extremely helpful and insightful and I truly do appreciate it.

That said, I too could not wrap my head around why I got Romanian in my MacDonald results. I was baffled by that. It's good to know that someone else understands!

**Andiralenira** · 27 December 2012, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by mixedkid View Post

Some thoughts on a few of the issues you have brought up:

(1) Your known Italian can be seen in Ancestry's Southern European and Middle Eastern.

(2) Your known Polish can be seen in Ancestry's Eastern European.

(3) Remember that for a good part of its history, Poland was a large, multi-ethnic, multi-language, multi-religious nation-state. With some mention of the Caucasus in your post, I am reminded that at one time, Poland itself had a fairly large Armenian religious-ethnic minority.

(4) Your known Irish might be coming up in FamilyFinder's Orcadian category.

(5) I am very suspicious of the term "noise." If your ancestry is somehow connected to the colonial powers, the possibility always exists that the small segments of Native American ancestry that comes up through various calculators are, in fact, real -- though probably representative of a fairly distant ancestor -- as well as back-migration to Europe and subsequent second migration of descendants to the New World.

(6) I believe Family FInder found French for you as well. Your known connection to Ireland might help explain that. Ireland was one of the places where French Acadian catholic deportees from North America were resettled, just prior to the American Revolution. Any Acadian connection might also help explain your Native American chromosome segments.

Hi mixedkid,

That is very, very interesting. You have certainly "puzzled out" my results and your answer definitely is helping me to understand them much better.

I do know about Poland's rocky history - I just always thought (and was never told otherwise) that that branch of the family was all Polish. I never had any evidence to say that there may have been some admixture in their from another ethnic group.

The Orcadian result in FTDNA, I was able to figure out that meant Irish, so I did get that one.

The French part, I just thought was an error from FTDNA. I know that it says in their descriptions of how to interpret your results that you may or may not be descended from the ethnic groups listed for you.

I believed that the Spanish was an Ancestry error in trying to peg down Southern Italian, as that is not listed in my results. Why would they not list Italian?

The Adygei I figured to mean Polish.

You are right - I do have ancestry from the colonial powers, however, I don't have any paper trail that says that my ancestors were in the United States during the colonial period. The evidence I have says that they arrived in the late 1880's and I don't have any evidence that they came and went back, and then came back again. I never considered (based upon what I have found) this back and forth migration from Europe to the new world, so when I saw that in your answer, that really intrigued me. Very thought provoking.

I know a bit about the French mixing in with the Irish, but not much. I will have to read into that today.

I don't know much about the Acadian component you mentioned, which might explain the Native American bits. So what that means is, the French Acadians mixed with Native American, then came to Ireland, mixed in with the Irish, who then came to America. I did not realize that - but I will be sure to research it today, this is all so fascinating and I have so much to learn.

**Bartot** · 27 December 2012, 12:31 PM

If FTDNA placed/named Adygei as middle-east, then they are wrong as this area is north caucusas.
Unless FTDNA is saying caucasus is part of the middle-east.

I think its more pontic steppes

What are the caucasus placed , south caucasus is most likely middle-east but north caucasus?

**Andiralenira** · 27 December 2012, 06:59 PM

Incidentally, making things even odder, are the results I get from Dodecad's globe4 calculator:

----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

92.68% European
1.16% Asian
0.76% African
5.40% Amerindian

**Andiralenira** · 27 December 2012, 07:30 PM

And the MDLP World-22 Oracle-x Population Fitting gave these results:
Admix Results:

Gedmatch.Com

MDLP World-22 Oracle-x Population Fitting

This program is based on Larry Smiser's Population Fitting spreadsheet.
Questions about the method or results should be sent to him at [email protected]

THIS UTILITY IS STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT. RESULTS MAY CHANGE.

Finished reading population data. 276 populations found.
22 population clusters.

Kit Number: FN101587

Admix Results:

# Population Percent
1 Pygmy 0.00
2 West-Asian 15.44
3 North-European-Mesolithic 0.80
4 Indo-Tibetan 0.00
5 Mesoamerican 0.00
6 Arctic-Amerind 0.89
7 South-America_Amerind 0.00
8 Indian 0.00
9 North-Siberean 0.00
10 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 33.00
11 Samoedic 0.00
12 Indo-Iranian 1.06
13 East-Siberean 0.00
14 North-East-European 37.35
15 South-African 0.00
16 North-Amerind 0.27
17 Sub-Saharian 0.30
18 East-South-Asian 0.00
19 Near_East 9.98
20 Melanesian 0.92
21 Paleo-Siberian 0.00
22 Austronesian 0.00

Best Population Fit (Pct. Option 1):

1 Bulgarian 95.67%
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 1.10%
3 Greek_Azov 0.52%
4 Bra2 0.50%
5 Cirkassian 0.48%
6 Arctic-Amerind 0.46%
7 Kalash 0.40%
8 Melanesian 0.39%
9 Lumbee 0.34%
10 Greek_North 0.14%

Total RMSD: 0.211604
Elapsed time 0.1027 seconds.

**Táltos** · 27 December 2012, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Bartot View Post

If FTDNA placed/named Adygei as middle-east, then they are wrong as this area is north caucusas.
Unless FTDNA is saying caucasus is part of the middle-east.

I think its more pontic steppes

What are the caucasus placed , south caucasus is most likely middle-east but north caucasus?

Bartot I have had to do the survey for FTDNA twice now. It asks:

"Family Finder Population survey results indicate your genetic ancestry partly matches the following population groups. To view your percentage breakdown and ensure the lowest margin of error please select the population group that best fits your known ancestry. If adopted or you do not know your ancestry, or if none of the above options seem appropriate to you select none of the above."

And these were the groups I was given to choose from:
Jewish
Middle Eastern
Bedouin
Caucasus
Middle Eastern/North African
Iranian
None of the Above

I chose none of the above, because I knew no such ancestry. As you can see in my signature what was select for me, and the margin of error which can go plus or minus in that number.

Out of my Family Finder matches half of my matches are Jewish. I also have a match there from Turkey. On Gedmatch I also have another match from Turkey, one from Armenia, and another match with a first name that can sound Iraqi, but with a last name that sounds either Syrian, Egyptian, or from Yemen.

So my point is, yes I guess that FTDNA considers this the Middle East!

**Táltos** · 27 December 2012, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Andiralenira View Post

First of all, I'd like to say to everyone responding to this thread, you have all been so extremely helpful and insightful and I truly do appreciate it.

That said, I too could not wrap my head around why I got Romanian in my MacDonald results. I was baffled by that. It's good to know that someone else understands!

Your welcome Andiralenira. I just had a light bulb go off in my head when Bartot was questioning the Adygei result for you being in the Middle East. They are in a region called the Caucasus.

I too initially thought maybe this result could be related to my Lithuanian/Polish heritage. Seeing as these are European border countries. I now wonder if this could be related to your Southern Italian heritage. I too have this at 25%, my mother is 50%. What I am wondering is do you know if you have Arbëreshë heritage from this region. If you are not sure to make it short they are Albanians who settled in Southern Italy and Sicily from the 15-18th centuries. You can just google them and can find out more if you are interested.

Anyway, I had wrote to Alexandr who created the 4 Ancestor Oracle to see if he could verify if he had any Arbëreshë samples, and he indicated that he did not. But he did report that the Albanians that are present in the MDLP project when they don't look like themselves (Albanians) look close to Western Mediterranean-to the Basques, the Corsicans, the people of Provence and northern Italy. But they do have an admixture of the South Caucasus (Oracle defines it as 25% Armenian or Georgians.) And then I thought of your FTDNA result!

Not sure if it in fact means anything. And I know not every Southern Italian or Sicilian is part Arbëreshë. But they are a "large" minority from those areas that you may want to consider.

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