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  • EdwardRHill
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    If its not noise at such a small %, it may be way back there. Also your matches to possible Mex, some of the people on the Trail of Tears ran into Tex/Mex so that could be why your matching some people with Spanish names as distant cousins.
    The amounts are different with Admixer proportions thats where I see more population that seem to be referring to NA DNA along with larger numbers. I'll total them up along with description.

    Mesoamerican 4.7
    Artic-Amerind 8.9
    South-America_Amerind 3.7
    Indian Asain/American? unknown 8.9
    North-Amerind 7.7

    I don't think I'll find anything connecting me to those with Spanish surname I have more than 5 now that I think about it and at least one married a guy with a Spanish surnames. I have seen the name Hernandez mention in early records so maybe there was a Spanish grandmother somewhere down the tree. My mother mother family were Scots and I know some were hired guns for different Kings and Counties beside England. A distant cousin moved to Mexico I think he had two kids a son and a daughter. The son was in the Military and visited the family in Scotland. The daughter might have become a Nun. Also don't forget the French which I have in a couple of French lines in my tree I have not done much research with those lines.

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
    Yes that reading I gave you is from Oracle.
    If its not noise at such a small %, it may be way back there. Also your matches to possible Mex, some of the people on the Trail of Tears ran into Tex/Mex so that could be why your matching some people with Spanish names as distant cousins.

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  • EdwardRHill
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    after getting your results did you go further and use the Oracle option?
    Yes that reading I gave you is from Oracle.

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
    Nope no mention of Mexico or the South West but it does say South-America_Amerind 0.27%
    after getting your results did you go further and use the Oracle option?

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  • EdwardRHill
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    Use the MDLP World-22 Oracle and see if it tells you if you match Mexico at all. This is the first utility on gedmatch that has more samples and at least reads some of my family's AI correctly in the sense of correct general area of Mex,SW US and Baja Cali
    Nope no mention of Mexico or the South West but it does say South-America_Amerind 0.27%

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
    The two with pictures are said to be "Low" I have found matches that are described as "very Low" that have a Common Ancestor within the 6th and 9th generation. At this time I have no interest in making contact with them I just don't see any reason to I have heard of traded between the tribes maybe this is proof of it but other will have to look to prove it if they are interested in it.

    My new match has the line going back 5 more generation. I don't think I'm going to be able to find any paper saying my GGGM was the daughter of who I think is her father. I hoping someone will come along and do the FF test and they share the same people helping to support the information I have its probably going to be as good as it gets. I'm not really sure if the white guy married the Indian lady or not but my match says he did. He might have been married to more than one woman at a time but his son from the NA took the fathers name.

    Use the MDLP World-22 Oracle and see if it tells you if you match Mexico at all. This is the first utility on gedmatch that has more samples and at least reads some of my family's AI correctly in the sense of correct general area of Mex,SW US and Baja Cali

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  • EdwardRHill
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    How far back are they telling you these matches are your matches with Spanish names? 5th distant cousin or closer? I would try contacting them to see where their families may have been in Mexico or SW USA. See if your matches have actually checked Catholic Church records on their ancestors to see if possible tribe listed on records. Could be on baptisms, marriage, death and possibly court records if your lucky. With The Trail of Tears there were close to 15,000 soldiers that escorted and I believe was voluntary. Andrew Jackson overwrote congress and made the tribes remove. Some I know that escorted from my family's area of NC were sympathizers, Some Doctors and were more than likely there to help the tribes when they could not control Andrew Jackson.

    If your going back to 1830 or before, try and find people in your direct lines willing to MT or Y-DNA those lines. More European men married AI women than the other way around. Its common to have NPE in AI lines because they do not come from Church practice and did not have the term illegitimate or bastard in their culture. For one the Cherokee were mother clan. Could give children mother's surname instead of fathers. Even though there were tribes that were not mother clan, they still could have given a child mother's surname instead of fathers. All AI tribes practiced polygamy. If they were thrust into Euro society, they would have been permitted only one wife on paper but it does not mean they did not keep more than one wife. In the State of NC if a woman was not married on paper to the father of her children, those children were given mother's surname instead of fathers. This may have applied for other southern states too. I also know they did this in Mexico. I have several on my tree given mother's surname in both direct lines and cousin lines.
    The two with pictures are said to be "Low" I have found matches that are described as "very Low" that have a Common Ancestor within the 6th and 9th generation. At this time I have no interest in making contact with them I just don't see any reason to I have heard of traded between the tribes maybe this is proof of it but other will have to look to prove it if they are interested in it.

    My new match has the line going back 5 more generation. I don't think I'm going to be able to find any paper saying my GGGM was the daughter of who I think is her father. I hoping someone will come along and do the FF test and they share the same people helping to support the information I have its probably going to be as good as it gets. I'm not really sure if the white guy married the Indian lady or not but my match says he did. He might have been married to more than one woman at a time but his son from the NA took the fathers name.

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
    I have over 36 pages of matches I'm going to guess in total I have 5 matches with Spanish surnames at least two of them proved pictures both look to be Mexican I don't know if they live in the US or Mexico. I did a quick look for ones with pictures and one is private the other is a public tree names in tree all Spanish but has 100% other. From what I remember one other may list only Spanish surnames, one or two others have both English and Spanish surnames the last one I don't remember percents for the last 3 or 4 I don't know. I'm 96% British Isle's 4% uncertain. Most of my family are from the South East some came down from North East after the Revolutionary War I know a good number moved west.

    My newest possible NA connection I believe was left behind when her family was moved west. I found a man with her last name living among the Indians in the same county during the 1830 census. She married and raised a family in the same county. He was in the 1830 census had a female listed in the age range she would be in. I had thought he either was one of the escort or was forced to move west. But after 1830 he was nowhere to be found. A new match has come along with the information I was looking for but I have to check it out. He has a Grandfather who lived during the same time has the same name and was living in the same area shes in. He also has information that says he was moved west during the 1830 Indian Removal act. I am not a member of any tribe nor do i want to be a part of one but I am interested about the people who I come from and will learn what i can about them.

    How far back are they telling you these matches are your matches with Spanish names? 5th distant cousin or closer? I would try contacting them to see where their families may have been in Mexico or SW USA. See if your matches have actually checked Catholic Church records on their ancestors to see if possible tribe listed on records. Could be on baptisms, marriage, death and possibly court records if your lucky. With The Trail of Tears there were close to 15,000 soldiers that escorted and I believe was voluntary. Andrew Jackson overwrote congress and made the tribes remove. Some I know that escorted from my family's area of NC were sympathizers, Some Doctors and were more than likely there to help the tribes when they could not control Andrew Jackson.

    If your going back to 1830 or before, try and find people in your direct lines willing to MT or Y-DNA those lines. More European men married AI women than the other way around. Its common to have NPE in AI lines because they do not come from Church practice and did not have the term illegitimate or bastard in their culture. For one the Cherokee were mother clan. Could give children mother's surname instead of fathers. Even though there were tribes that were not mother clan, they still could have given a child mother's surname instead of fathers. All AI tribes practiced polygamy. If they were thrust into Euro society, they would have been permitted only one wife on paper but it does not mean they did not keep more than one wife. In the State of NC if a woman was not married on paper to the father of her children, those children were given mother's surname instead of fathers. This may have applied for other southern states too. I also know they did this in Mexico. I have several on my tree given mother's surname in both direct lines and cousin lines.

    Leave a comment:


  • EdwardRHill
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    On ancestry you are getting Mexican matches as far as cousin matches in Mexico/south of the border or are you getting Mexico match as % only and what % are they giving you?

    Also where was your family? What area? Some US tribes ran back and forth across the border and some may not have record. I know they grabbed some of the the Seminole and baptized them with Spanish names. They may have done this with other tribes though I don't know if records have been found for the other tribes running on the border. You would have better chance in Mexico as far as finding tribe on a court record than you would on the US side if your family were AI and did not stay with their tribe.
    I have over 36 pages of matches I'm going to guess in total I have 5 matches with Spanish surnames at least two of them proved pictures both look to be Mexican I don't know if they live in the US or Mexico. I did a quick look for ones with pictures and one is private the other is a public tree names in tree all Spanish but has 100% other. From what I remember one other may list only Spanish surnames, one or two others have both English and Spanish surnames the last one I don't remember percents for the last 3 or 4 I don't know. I'm 96% British Isle's 4% uncertain. Most of my family are from the South East some came down from North East after the Revolutionary War I know a good number moved west.

    My newest possible NA connection I believe was left behind when her family was moved west. I found a man with her last name living among the Indians in the same county during the 1830 census. She married and raised a family in the same county. He was in the 1830 census had a female listed in the age range she would be in. I had thought he either was one of the escort or was forced to move west. But after 1830 he was nowhere to be found. A new match has come along with the information I was looking for but I have to check it out. He has a Grandfather who lived during the same time has the same name and was living in the same area shes in. He also has information that says he was moved west during the 1830 Indian Removal act. I am not a member of any tribe nor do i want to be a part of one but I am interested about the people who I come from and will learn what i can about them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
    I don't like hearing that the LDS is keeping information from people that makes no since but they do a lot of things I don't like. Its more of the number of Mexican looking matches I have that makes me think thats a source of NA DNA but I'm only guessing as far as the rest only time will tell.
    On ancestry you are getting Mexican matches as far as cousin matches in Mexico/south of the border or are you getting Mexico match as % only and what % are they giving you?

    Also where was your family? What area? Some US tribes ran back and forth across the border and some may not have record. I know they grabbed some of the the Seminole and baptized them with Spanish names. They may have done this with other tribes though I don't know if records have been found for the other tribes running on the border. You would have better chance in Mexico as far as finding tribe on a court record than you would on the US side if your family were AI and did not stay with their tribe.

    Leave a comment:


  • EdwardRHill
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    I can tell you that with my family documented AI and close to the living gedmatch reads our family wrong. And Harappa is strictly for European ancestry only. I was told by the creator no NA samples were used for this utility. I would not rely on these utilities as being accurate of an AI ancestor because again there are not many samples out there. You could be getting false positive or false negative.

    Not everyone matches Mexico and still could have AI ancestors. My 1/2 sister and I share a great grandmother who is AI from the US. It shows up on her X and not autosomal. She doesn't match Mexico at all. This line MT-DNA tested. Im guessing that is all ancestry has is Mexico/Central America/South America like most utilities. I know of no tribal members that would give their DNA to the LDS (Sorenson) unless they converted to being LDS or married LDS. They do have a secret AI room that no one is permitted to see unless you can prove they are your ancestors. How are you supposed to prove they are you ancestors if you cant see the records???? The way they treat AI tribes is very bad. Tribes should be entitled to their records no matter what.
    I don't like hearing that the LDS is keeping information from people that makes no since but they do a lot of things I don't like. Its more of the number of Mexican looking matches I have that makes me think thats a source of NA DNA but I'm only guessing as far as the rest only time will tell.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
    What I am referring to with Gedmatch is the Admixture utilities that are using this terms that seem to be identifying NA heritage.

    MDLP is using Mesoamerican, Arctic-Amerind, South-America_Amerind, Indian, and North-Amerind. I see where I can contact the arthur of this tool but I’m not interested enough to do so I think Amerind is abbreviated American Indian if she wants to look farther into it she can.

    Eurogenes K12, 12b are using East Asian and K13 is using East Asian and Amerindian.

    Dodecad is also using East Asian.

    Harappa is using S-Indian possibly the Asian Indians I guess and American and SE Asian.

    I’m not going to worry about the finer details of what they have, and who has what, for now thing are evolving as you know. My Ancestry matches that I mentioned some proved pictures and they appear to be at least Mexican and you know the percentage of Mexicans that have NA ancestry is very high so I’m guessing Ancestry could be using their DNA.

    If Y and mt turns up nothing for me and I was that interested I would do Family Finder test see what comes of that and other options like Gedmatch.
    I can tell you that with my family documented AI and close to the living gedmatch reads our family wrong. And Harappa is strictly for European ancestry only. I was told by the creator no NA samples were used for this utility. I would not rely on these utilities as being accurate of an AI ancestor because again there are not many samples out there. You could be getting false positive or false negative.

    Not everyone matches Mexico and still could have AI ancestors. My 1/2 sister and I share a great grandmother who is AI from the US. It shows up on her X and not autosomal. She doesn't match Mexico at all. This line MT-DNA tested. Im guessing that is all ancestry has is Mexico/Central America/South America like most utilities. I know of no tribal members that would give their DNA to the LDS (Sorenson) unless they converted to being LDS or married LDS. They do have a secret AI room that no one is permitted to see unless you can prove they are your ancestors. How are you supposed to prove they are you ancestors if you cant see the records???? The way they treat AI tribes is very bad. Tribes should be entitled to their records no matter what.

    Leave a comment:


  • EdwardRHill
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    Gedmatch does not really have AI samples either. McDonald at the moment has samples no one does. As for ancestry they are not giving raw data or how they are coming up with matches or % at the moment. I don't think anyone knows what Sorenson has in their database or how many AI samples they have and from where. Most I have seen are samples form Central and South America because they dont have tribal enrollment like they do in the US and Canada.

    McDonald will even tell you some readings are noise. If you have a 9th great grandparent who was AI I doubt this would read on a % test at all. Also with % it does not tell you which ancestor it might belong to even if the reading is not noise. Most people who do have AI show up in a % test, these AI ancestors are within 100 years of the living. The further you go back and if a person did not stay with their tribe the likely-hood of finding that AI ancestor becomes slim. If they did not stay with their tribe they would get listed as white or possibly mulatto on a census. They did not have AI as a race on the census until 1880. I have seen people listed on the census in 1880 Indian and by 1900 federal census they all become white because they are not with a tribe. We call this pencil genocide.

    The further you go back it is wise to get Y or MT DNA on those ancestors because Y and MTDNA is solid and proof of one line ancestor. It is the best way to confirm who your further back ancestors may have been when pencil genocide may have been to blame. I know in the US if your ancestor did not stay with their tribe (or tribe is considered extinct due to pencil genocide) even if you come up with Y or MTDNA AI haplogroup very hard to prove a tribe on your ancestor unless by some luck you find a court record stating tribe. Finding court records with your ancestor stating tribe is so slim outside of tribal enrollment.
    What I am referring to with Gedmatch is the Admixture utilities that are using this terms that seem to be identifying NA heritage.

    MDLP is using Mesoamerican, Arctic-Amerind, South-America_Amerind, Indian, and North-Amerind. I see where I can contact the arthur of this tool but I’m not interested enough to do so I think Amerind is abbreviated American Indian if she wants to look farther into it she can.

    Eurogenes K12, 12b are using East Asian and K13 is using East Asian and Amerindian.

    Dodecad is also using East Asian.

    Harappa is using S-Indian possibly the Asian Indians I guess and American and SE Asian.

    I’m not going to worry about the finer details of what they have, and who has what, for now thing are evolving as you know. My Ancestry matches that I mentioned some proved pictures and they appear to be at least Mexican and you know the percentage of Mexicans that have NA ancestry is very high so I’m guessing Ancestry could be using their DNA.

    If Y and mt turns up nothing for me and I was that interested I would do Family Finder test see what comes of that and other options like Gedmatch.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
    I got to keep this short and sweet my internet connection is on and off so some of this is by memory. I Know you have to have documentation and I mentioned my back ground to give her an idea where I coming from which sound the same. I have no sign of it in my FTDNA test it pretty much says 100% European, 23andme has me 100% European. But as you know FTDNA and 23andme don’t have NA samples but Ancestry seem to have because some of my matches there are described as Native South And North American. If she has done the Family Finder test she can upload to Gedmatch and us their utilities that I have used that seem to be showing NA heritage with description of Mesoamerican, Arctic-Amerind, South-America_Amerind, Indian, North-Amerind. So if your looking for some NA back up with DNA maybe for now anyway Gedmatch is the way to go. I'm not trying to join any tribe and I don't know what shes trying to do but for now the little bit of back up I'm getting from Gedmatch is encouraging.
    Gedmatch does not really have AI samples either. McDonald at the moment has samples no one does. As for ancestry they are not giving raw data or how they are coming up with matches or % at the moment. I don't think anyone knows what Sorenson has in their database or how many AI samples they have and from where. Most I have seen are samples form Central and South America because they dont have tribal enrollment like they do in the US and Canada.

    McDonald will even tell you some readings are noise. If you have a 9th great grandparent who was AI I doubt this would read on a % test at all. Also with % it does not tell you which ancestor it might belong to even if the reading is not noise. Most people who do have AI show up in a % test, these AI ancestors are within 100 years of the living. The further you go back and if a person did not stay with their tribe the likely-hood of finding that AI ancestor becomes slim. If they did not stay with their tribe they would get listed as white or possibly mulatto on a census. They did not have AI as a race on the census until 1880. I have seen people listed on the census in 1880 Indian and by 1900 federal census they all become white because they are not with a tribe. We call this pencil genocide.

    The further you go back it is wise to get Y or MT DNA on those ancestors because Y and MTDNA is solid and proof of one line ancestor. It is the best way to confirm who your further back ancestors may have been when pencil genocide may have been to blame. I know in the US if your ancestor did not stay with their tribe (or tribe is considered extinct due to pencil genocide) even if you come up with Y or MTDNA AI haplogroup very hard to prove a tribe on your ancestor unless by some luck you find a court record stating tribe. Finding court records with your ancestor stating tribe is so slim outside of tribal enrollment.

    Leave a comment:


  • EdwardRHill
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    Edward just because gedmatch is reading you as Asian is not proof of an AI ancestor. In general % tests have to be consistent and read your DNA the same no matter what company you test with. Not saying you don't have an AI ancestor but you need paper to back it up. I know of no tribe that will accept blood % tests as being accurate. Having paper and Y or MT-DNA to back the paper up is something else. Y and MT DNA can stand along as proving you do have an AI ancestor without paper but won't prove tribe.
    I got to keep this short and sweet my internet connection is on and off so some of this is by memory. I Know you have to have documentation and I mentioned my back ground to give her an idea where I coming from which sound the same. I have no sign of it in my FTDNA test it pretty much says 100% European, 23andme has me 100% European. But as you know FTDNA and 23andme don’t have NA samples but Ancestry seem to have because some of my matches there are described as Native South And North American. If she has done the Family Finder test she can upload to Gedmatch and us their utilities that I have used that seem to be showing NA heritage with description of Mesoamerican, Arctic-Amerind, South-America_Amerind, Indian, North-Amerind. So if your looking for some NA back up with DNA maybe for now anyway Gedmatch is the way to go. I'm not trying to join any tribe and I don't know what shes trying to do but for now the little bit of back up I'm getting from Gedmatch is encouraging.
    Last edited by EdwardRHill; 12 October 2012, 10:25 AM.

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