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  • percent of Indian blood?

    mtDNA test taken by my aunt because of the direct line to gg grandmother. but no Indian found. Believe the Indian line was male, my gggrandmother was half because of this on her fathers line. Any test to tell if this could be true, the % I might have and (really pushing it!!) what tribe it could be? Do have her picture and she definitely looks Indian, as does her daughter, my ggrandmother.

  • #2
    I would suggest sending your DNA results to Dr McDonald. I think he has a good database to look for NA ancestry. You just write a brief description of your ancestry and address an email to him, attached your DNA results (after downloading it from here) and send it to him. He does this free of charge. I do not have his email address handy but if you do a search here you should be able to find it easily enough.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
      I would suggest sending your DNA results to Dr McDonald. I think he has a good database to look for NA ancestry. You just write a brief description of your ancestry and address an email to him, attached your DNA results (after downloading it from here) and send it to him. He does this free of charge. I do not have his email address handy but if you do a search here you should be able to find it easily enough.
      The original poster wrote that his/her aunt had the mtDNA test, not Family Finder test. Your advice about McDonald is good, but it only applies if the aunt has had the Family Finder test.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by patz View Post
        mtDNA test taken by my aunt because of the direct line to gg grandmother. but no Indian found. Believe the Indian line was male, my gggrandmother was half because of this on her fathers line. Any test to tell if this could be true, the % I might have and (really pushing it!!) what tribe it could be? Do have her picture and she definitely looks Indian, as does her daughter, my ggrandmother.
        Any chance of getting older relatives to test via family finder? You'd have more luck then. If not, your aunt might be sufficient, but it is a bit of a gamble.

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        • #5
          [QUOTE=patz;348787] ... what tribe it could be?[QUOTE]

          Your only hope of finding out tribal affiliation, at present, is via a match to another Family Finder user with a paper connection to a tribe on one or more segments identified as American Indian.

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          • #6
            [QUOTE=tomcat;348828][QUOTE=patz;348787] ... what tribe it could be?

            Your only hope of finding out tribal affiliation, at present, is via a match to another Family Finder user with a paper connection to a tribe on one or more segments identified as American Indian.
            Family Finder wont help as far as Tribe goes. The OP has to find a paper trail to a direct line ancestor. I have inter tribal in my family and my family finder matches cant prove who is what because the autosomal can go to any line ancestor. All matches on family finder have to have paper trail on both ends leading to same ancestor line. Y and MT-DNA is at least one direct line ancestor but still cant prove tribe with out paper even if you have a match to a tribal member with MT-DNA FGS. Y-DNA may be able to prove tribe if someone matched a tribal member who has tested their male line and is AI. They would have to be a very close 111 marker.

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            • #7
              I found a year or so ago two Grandmothers described as being Indian or part Indian in the 9th generation. One on each side of my tree I have not done much research about this two it was just a sneak peek ahead. My grandmother had told others in the family about Cherokee Ancestry but I could not find any clue of it and always thought it was my fathers line which is one of the two others possible NA finds. But it turned out it was her line her Grandmother who was one of my Brick Walls. I only figured it out after a FF match came along with the information I needed. Neither of us have any sign of NA ancestry with the test. But Gedmatch turns up for me East Asian, Native South American, Native North American, Indian and some other descriptions of NA ancestry. So when you get a chance and if the others don't turn up anything try Gedmatch.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
                I found a year or so ago two Grandmothers described as being Indian or part Indian in the 9th generation. One on each side of my tree I have not done much research about this two it was just a sneak peek ahead. My grandmother had told others in the family about Cherokee Ancestry but I could not find any clue of it and always thought it was my fathers line which is one of the two others possible NA finds. But it turned out it was her line her Grandmother who was one of my Brick Walls. I only figured it out after a FF match came along with the information I needed. Neither of us have any sign of NA ancestry with the test. But Gedmatch turns up for me East Asian, Native South American, Native North American, Indian and some other descriptions of NA ancestry. So when you get a chance and if the others don't turn up anything try Gedmatch.
                Edward just because gedmatch is reading you as Asian is not proof of an AI ancestor. In general % tests have to be consistent and read your DNA the same no matter what company you test with. Not saying you don't have an AI ancestor but you need paper to back it up. I know of no tribe that will accept blood % tests as being accurate. Having paper and Y or MT-DNA to back the paper up is something else. Y and MT DNA can stand along as proving you do have an AI ancestor without paper but won't prove tribe.

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                • #9
                  Paz

                  What surnames are you researching and what location? This might help if someone knows what family you are researching.

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                  • #10
                    First I apologize for not reading the question more carefully . Must have been one of those late night responses . Fortunately more astute readers gave good answers.


                    I know of no tribe that will accept blood % tests as being accurate
                    I just wanted to add that a person trying to establish NA ancestry and Tribe acceptance are two different concepts. Tribes , as well as the USA government, will not accept DNA testing as entrance to any tribe. The government argues that NA tribes are based on culture and tradition. It is consequently possible to have a NA haplogroup and not be accepted into any tribe . Conversely it is possible to be a tribe member without any trace of NA DNA.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
                      First I apologize for not reading the question more carefully . Must have been one of those late night responses . Fortunately more astute readers gave good answers.



                      I just wanted to add that a person trying to establish NA ancestry and Tribe acceptance are two different concepts. Tribes , as well as the USA government, will not accept DNA testing as entrance to any tribe. The government argues that NA tribes are based on culture and tradition. It is consequently possible to have a NA haplogroup and not be accepted into any tribe . Conversely it is possible to be a tribe member without any trace of NA DNA.
                      Yes they two different things but autosomal is not acceptable since its reads different with every company and in general autosomal can not prove a specific ancestor on %. Second they dont have many AI samples because of cultural and gov issues, many tribes will not give up their DNA. I know tribes that do require paternity tests for enrollment if a person needs to enroll with a tribe through a father line. Some may accept Y DNA if a father is deceased for a paternity test but cant say for sure. I know tribes out there that do accept that Y and MT DNA haplogroups are accurate but it still does not prove tribe and will not entitle someone to enroll with a tribe. You must have paper.

                      Most tribes should have a trace of AI DNA except those tribes who have a low blood % for enrollment or have no blood % requirements for enrollment. Like the 5 civilized tribes. Your ancestor must be on the Dawes and accepted as a tribal member with no % required. If your ancestor was accepted on the dawes than all descendants from that ancestor on the Dawes are enrolled tribal members.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
                        Edward just because gedmatch is reading you as Asian is not proof of an AI ancestor. In general % tests have to be consistent and read your DNA the same no matter what company you test with. Not saying you don't have an AI ancestor but you need paper to back it up. I know of no tribe that will accept blood % tests as being accurate. Having paper and Y or MT-DNA to back the paper up is something else. Y and MT DNA can stand along as proving you do have an AI ancestor without paper but won't prove tribe.
                        I got to keep this short and sweet my internet connection is on and off so some of this is by memory. I Know you have to have documentation and I mentioned my back ground to give her an idea where I coming from which sound the same. I have no sign of it in my FTDNA test it pretty much says 100% European, 23andme has me 100% European. But as you know FTDNA and 23andme don’t have NA samples but Ancestry seem to have because some of my matches there are described as Native South And North American. If she has done the Family Finder test she can upload to Gedmatch and us their utilities that I have used that seem to be showing NA heritage with description of Mesoamerican, Arctic-Amerind, South-America_Amerind, Indian, North-Amerind. So if your looking for some NA back up with DNA maybe for now anyway Gedmatch is the way to go. I'm not trying to join any tribe and I don't know what shes trying to do but for now the little bit of back up I'm getting from Gedmatch is encouraging.
                        Last edited by EdwardRHill; 12 October 2012, 11:25 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
                          I got to keep this short and sweet my internet connection is on and off so some of this is by memory. I Know you have to have documentation and I mentioned my back ground to give her an idea where I coming from which sound the same. I have no sign of it in my FTDNA test it pretty much says 100% European, 23andme has me 100% European. But as you know FTDNA and 23andme don’t have NA samples but Ancestry seem to have because some of my matches there are described as Native South And North American. If she has done the Family Finder test she can upload to Gedmatch and us their utilities that I have used that seem to be showing NA heritage with description of Mesoamerican, Arctic-Amerind, South-America_Amerind, Indian, North-Amerind. So if your looking for some NA back up with DNA maybe for now anyway Gedmatch is the way to go. I'm not trying to join any tribe and I don't know what shes trying to do but for now the little bit of back up I'm getting from Gedmatch is encouraging.
                          Gedmatch does not really have AI samples either. McDonald at the moment has samples no one does. As for ancestry they are not giving raw data or how they are coming up with matches or % at the moment. I don't think anyone knows what Sorenson has in their database or how many AI samples they have and from where. Most I have seen are samples form Central and South America because they dont have tribal enrollment like they do in the US and Canada.

                          McDonald will even tell you some readings are noise. If you have a 9th great grandparent who was AI I doubt this would read on a % test at all. Also with % it does not tell you which ancestor it might belong to even if the reading is not noise. Most people who do have AI show up in a % test, these AI ancestors are within 100 years of the living. The further you go back and if a person did not stay with their tribe the likely-hood of finding that AI ancestor becomes slim. If they did not stay with their tribe they would get listed as white or possibly mulatto on a census. They did not have AI as a race on the census until 1880. I have seen people listed on the census in 1880 Indian and by 1900 federal census they all become white because they are not with a tribe. We call this pencil genocide.

                          The further you go back it is wise to get Y or MT DNA on those ancestors because Y and MTDNA is solid and proof of one line ancestor. It is the best way to confirm who your further back ancestors may have been when pencil genocide may have been to blame. I know in the US if your ancestor did not stay with their tribe (or tribe is considered extinct due to pencil genocide) even if you come up with Y or MTDNA AI haplogroup very hard to prove a tribe on your ancestor unless by some luck you find a court record stating tribe. Finding court records with your ancestor stating tribe is so slim outside of tribal enrollment.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
                            Gedmatch does not really have AI samples either. McDonald at the moment has samples no one does. As for ancestry they are not giving raw data or how they are coming up with matches or % at the moment. I don't think anyone knows what Sorenson has in their database or how many AI samples they have and from where. Most I have seen are samples form Central and South America because they dont have tribal enrollment like they do in the US and Canada.

                            McDonald will even tell you some readings are noise. If you have a 9th great grandparent who was AI I doubt this would read on a % test at all. Also with % it does not tell you which ancestor it might belong to even if the reading is not noise. Most people who do have AI show up in a % test, these AI ancestors are within 100 years of the living. The further you go back and if a person did not stay with their tribe the likely-hood of finding that AI ancestor becomes slim. If they did not stay with their tribe they would get listed as white or possibly mulatto on a census. They did not have AI as a race on the census until 1880. I have seen people listed on the census in 1880 Indian and by 1900 federal census they all become white because they are not with a tribe. We call this pencil genocide.

                            The further you go back it is wise to get Y or MT DNA on those ancestors because Y and MTDNA is solid and proof of one line ancestor. It is the best way to confirm who your further back ancestors may have been when pencil genocide may have been to blame. I know in the US if your ancestor did not stay with their tribe (or tribe is considered extinct due to pencil genocide) even if you come up with Y or MTDNA AI haplogroup very hard to prove a tribe on your ancestor unless by some luck you find a court record stating tribe. Finding court records with your ancestor stating tribe is so slim outside of tribal enrollment.
                            What I am referring to with Gedmatch is the Admixture utilities that are using this terms that seem to be identifying NA heritage.

                            MDLP is using Mesoamerican, Arctic-Amerind, South-America_Amerind, Indian, and North-Amerind. I see where I can contact the arthur of this tool but I’m not interested enough to do so I think Amerind is abbreviated American Indian if she wants to look farther into it she can.

                            Eurogenes K12, 12b are using East Asian and K13 is using East Asian and Amerindian.

                            Dodecad is also using East Asian.

                            Harappa is using S-Indian possibly the Asian Indians I guess and American and SE Asian.

                            I’m not going to worry about the finer details of what they have, and who has what, for now thing are evolving as you know. My Ancestry matches that I mentioned some proved pictures and they appear to be at least Mexican and you know the percentage of Mexicans that have NA ancestry is very high so I’m guessing Ancestry could be using their DNA.

                            If Y and mt turns up nothing for me and I was that interested I would do Family Finder test see what comes of that and other options like Gedmatch.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
                              What I am referring to with Gedmatch is the Admixture utilities that are using this terms that seem to be identifying NA heritage.

                              MDLP is using Mesoamerican, Arctic-Amerind, South-America_Amerind, Indian, and North-Amerind. I see where I can contact the arthur of this tool but I’m not interested enough to do so I think Amerind is abbreviated American Indian if she wants to look farther into it she can.

                              Eurogenes K12, 12b are using East Asian and K13 is using East Asian and Amerindian.

                              Dodecad is also using East Asian.

                              Harappa is using S-Indian possibly the Asian Indians I guess and American and SE Asian.

                              I’m not going to worry about the finer details of what they have, and who has what, for now thing are evolving as you know. My Ancestry matches that I mentioned some proved pictures and they appear to be at least Mexican and you know the percentage of Mexicans that have NA ancestry is very high so I’m guessing Ancestry could be using their DNA.

                              If Y and mt turns up nothing for me and I was that interested I would do Family Finder test see what comes of that and other options like Gedmatch.
                              I can tell you that with my family documented AI and close to the living gedmatch reads our family wrong. And Harappa is strictly for European ancestry only. I was told by the creator no NA samples were used for this utility. I would not rely on these utilities as being accurate of an AI ancestor because again there are not many samples out there. You could be getting false positive or false negative.

                              Not everyone matches Mexico and still could have AI ancestors. My 1/2 sister and I share a great grandmother who is AI from the US. It shows up on her X and not autosomal. She doesn't match Mexico at all. This line MT-DNA tested. Im guessing that is all ancestry has is Mexico/Central America/South America like most utilities. I know of no tribal members that would give their DNA to the LDS (Sorenson) unless they converted to being LDS or married LDS. They do have a secret AI room that no one is permitted to see unless you can prove they are your ancestors. How are you supposed to prove they are you ancestors if you cant see the records???? The way they treat AI tribes is very bad. Tribes should be entitled to their records no matter what.

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