New and Confused!

[BarbP]

We just recently had my mother's male cousin's DNA tested -- to 37 markers. The test results have come in, and the results have us a bit stumped. I am hoping someone here can answer my questions.

Let's call the tested family line the B family. We know it to a certainty back to 1832 but have been road-blocked beyond that point. There is a possibility the line is a German descent line, but it is also possible the line is an Irish/English descent -- we don't know which one, and that is a major reason for having the DNA test done.

Quite a few people in the overall B family have had DNA tests done, so we expected to get a goodly number of matches.

Not so. We ended up with 4 matches at the 12-marker level, and just 3 matches at the 37-marker level. Of the 4 matches at 12-markers, 3 of them are to members of a B family who have their furthest paternal individual being of German descent. The 1 remaining 12-marker family is not a B family at all but a G family and we have no members of this G family anywhere in our records.

How did the G family results show up at the 12-marker point for our B family testing? My guess is that the G family does have a direct line B family member and had that DNA test done for the B family, but on the website where it asks for the furthest paternal individual, they put the furthest paternal individual for the family name they now have which is *not* the B family. This would be like my mother who is a B family member, misunderstanding what the website is asking for and putting in my dad's furthest paternal individual because my dad's family name is her last name now.

Next, with regard to the matches at the 37-markers, all 3 of those are B family matches and are the same B family matches that showed up at the 12-marker results. They have as their furthest paternal individual a person of German origin. One of them shared his GEDCOM file with me, and when I looked through it to find out where our two B families connect up, I found an error. If his records are correct up to that point, then in fact his B family descends from a B line that is NOT of German origin. And so it then follows that, since our B family is a close match with his B family, our B family doesn't descend from a German origin either. Right?

Lastly, I'm having some trouble understanding what the Y-DNA Haplogroup info is telling me. At the 12- and 37-marker level, I'm being given 3 matches to Germany -- I believe that this is because the B family we show as a match to has their furthest paternal individual indicated as German, as described above. There are 3 individuals who have posted results, all of them from the same B family. But when I look at the Y-DNA Haplogroup Origins information, there are only 2 matches to Germany, 1 match to Switzerland, 1 match to France, 1 match to Iraq ... and 10 matches to England, Scotland, Ireland and/or the United Kingdom. This suggests to me that by the preponderance of the evidence, our B DNA is predominantly from the United Kingdom area -- am I correct in this understanding?

And since I already know that quite a few B families have done the DNA testing, why in the world are we showing up with basically a match to only 1 of those families in the first place?

Many thanks to anyone who can help me out here!

[vinnie]

A 12 marker match that doesn't hold up at the 37 marker level normally indicates an ancient common ancestor most likely thousands of years back. What is the haplogroup?

[katerennie4]

Hello, I'll try to answer as many of your questions as possible.

First, a 12-marker match is not indicative of any recent relationship. The fact that they drop off before 37 markers is a clear indication that your B family hasn't been related to this G family since surnames came into existence, and likely much earlier.

Next, not all "Jones" families are related to one another. They have many progenitors. So the fact that you "only match" 3 also doesn't mean anything beyond the fact that not all people with your surname are related.

Finally, as to the error in his tree, are you 100% sure there's an error? Have you been able to get him to admit there's an error in his tree? I don't know the specifics, I just want to make sure there is indeed an issue. If so, and you know that he's "English" or "Irish", then yes, it's likely that you are also.

[BarbP]

Hi katerennie4, and thank you for your response. I'll forget about the 12-marker info, then ....

As to what our haplogroup is, if I am understanding correctly it is

R1b1a2 R-M269

If that isn't the right information, where should I look to find it on the FTDNA site?

Re the error in our match's tree, I feel very certain about it. There is a Peter from Pennsylvania who is of German descent. Our B match had *2* sons of Peter named John which is clearly not correct. Of those 2 sons, our match is descended from the "extra" one, not the one who is the actual son of Peter. According to my further research on the John our match is descended from, that John is descended from B family in New York state, and all of Peter's children were born in Pennsylvania. So I feel sure that this is an error that has accidentally linked our B match's line to the German line.

The B family in New York state may also be of German descent, I don't know yet -- I've been working on that the last few days but so far nothing is clear about that line's origins. But according to the TIP on our match, it is 57.59% that we connect to his line within 4 generations, and 88.15% that we connect within 8 generations, so whatever his line is, the connection looks pretty solid.

I've emailed him about it, a couple of days ago, but have not yet heard back from him. I asked him how certain is he of his family connections back to the referenced John -- his line looks uncomplicated to that point, but it depends on his sources.

[Brunetmj]

You may want to do a deep clade test. I would suggest the new National Geographic Geno 2 test. FTDNA does not test very deep on the initial Y marker test. M269 covers just about everyone in Europe. Getting a good reading on your subclade may help.

[Sue Crowley]

On your 37 marker matches, how close are the matches? For example, you match on 34/37 markers, 37/37 markers, etc?

[vinnie]

Hi katerennie4, and thank you for your response. I'll forget about the 12-marker info, then ....

As to what our haplogroup is, if I am understanding correctly it is

R1b1a2 R-M269

If that isn't the right information, where should I look to find it on the FTDNA site?

1. If you haven't already, you should join one of the relevant R1b projects and have the administrators look at your haplotype (your 37 markers) and see if they have an idea of what subclade (subgroup) of M269 you belong to. They will also be able to advise you as to which SNPs you should test to verify your subclade. It is possible within R1b to have what look like 37 marker matches that belong to different subclades, which could take the matches back several hundred years if not farther.

2. Find out if the three matches belong to an R1b project, and if they have SNP tested; if not, they need to. Once you've established that all four of you belong to the same subclade, then you can be reasonably* assured that all four men have descended from a common male ancestor, and that your TIP results are giving you a reasonable estimate. You can also use the McGee utility to determine time to a recent common ancestor.

http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

3. Absent a reliable paper trail, you may never know which man is descended from which male ancestor in your trees. yDNA analysis can only indicate if two or more men share a common ancestor and give an approximate time frame of when that common ancestor lived.

*I say "reasonably" because new SNPs are being discovered all the time, and it's possible that a SNP may be discovered that could further separate the matches.

[BarbP]

On your 37 marker matches, how close are the matches? For example, you match on 34/37 markers, 37/37 markers, etc?

I don't know -- where would I find that information?

[Sue Crowley]

When you pull up your matches, the left hand column says STEPS: subtract whatever number is there from 37 to come up with the closeness of your match.

[Sue Crowley]

Once you have your number, go back to the Y-DNA Header and scroll down to Printable Certificates. When it pulls up you will see Understanding Your Results, and that will tell you how far back your matches are, to the common ancestor.

[BarbP]

When you pull up your matches, the left hand column says STEPS: subtract whatever number is there from 37 to come up with the closeness of your match.

Thank you!

We tested for YDNA-37.

At YDNA-37 the first two individuals are 0 steps
At YDNA-67, the third individual is at 1 step.

The third individual is the one with whom I've corresponded so far, and I think (not positive) that one of the first two individuals may be his son or other close known relative to him as the email addresses are the same.

[BarbP]

I want to thank you others who have responded -- I appreciate your suggestions and will definitely look into them. Right now it's all a bit overwhelming as I guess is obvious!

[MMaddi]

Thank you!

We tested for YDNA-37.

At YDNA-37 the first two individuals are 0 steps
At YDNA-67, the third individual is at 1 step.

The third individual is the one with whom I've corresponded so far, and I think (not positive) that one of the first two individuals may be his son or other close known relative to him as the email addresses are the same.

You have a very good match. A 66/67 match indicates a very recent common paternal line ancestor, probably within the last 200-300 years and possibly within 100 years or less.

[Bartot]

On your 37 marker matches, how close are the matches? For example, you match on 34/37 markers, 37/37 markers, etc?

hi

I have 4 people which have 36/37 markers does this indicate no more than 4 generations and is a generation the standard 25 years?

[Bartot]

A 12 marker match that doesn't hold up at the 37 marker level normally indicates an ancient common ancestor most likely thousands of years back. What is the haplogroup?

hi

I am new to genetics , and I was contemplating your sentence above and it confuses me.

I have nobody associated closer than 12 marker to my tested 37 markers.
the 13 or so people which have this 12 marker match, reside in Britain, 9 of them, 2 in southern germany, 1 in northern Italy and 1 in Slovenia.

My FF has only 1 match to a person in North Carolina USA from 1720-1770...most likely from Britain

All are Haplogroup T1 or T1b


With your comments, are you saying that these people who share something with me in britain, arrived there at the time of or before the Romans arrived.

I have 2 project managers ( T and ALPGEN )

thank you