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  • #16
    Originally posted by Wills View Post
    I suppose a more accurate question would have been a comparison of Ancestry's test to Family Finder, and Nat Geo's 2.0 to deep clade.

    I'm still learning.

    Wills
    Until Ancestry provides raw data and a chromosome browser showing the location of shared segments on which they base their relationship prediction, I'm not taking them seriously. Family Finder, as well as 23andMe, provide that information. If you're serious about trying to find common ancestors, it's essential to be able to triangulate matches, which the chromosome browser allows you to do. Also, the raw data download can be uploaded to gedmatch.com, where there are many useful tools.

    Basically, FTDNA's deep clade test is obsolete. First of all, you can test for hundreds of newer SNPs from the Advanced Orders menu at $29 each; these SNPs were only discovered about a year ago and are not included in the current deep clade test, which costs $139. Once results start coming from Geno 2.0, it will be time to bury the deep clade test. Geno 2.0, as you might have seen from the links I provided, will test for 12,000 yDNA SNPs, some of which are not yet tested by any genetic genealogy company, including FTDNA. Just compare: Geno 2.0, $199, tests 12,000 yDNA SNPs, plus a large part of the mtDNA, plus 130,000 autosomal SNPs for ancestry admixture vs. deep clade test, $139, for yDNA SNPs that don't include very important SNPs discovered in the last year.

    Since you're R1b1a2, there is some value in individual SNP testing from the Advanced Orders menu. The two main divisions of R1b1a2 are defined by P312 and U106. You could test one and, if negative for it, test the other. That would give you some basic information for $29 or $58. But I still believe that Geno 2.0 is the best value if you're interested in knowing your subclade at the terminal SNP level.

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    • #17
      MMaddi,

      I appreciate the help.

      One other thing: I have the somewhat rare value of 14 at DYS393. If I run my results through Cullen's halpogroup predictor, I get 90% Frisian3 which, if I've done my homework (ha) correctly, seems to indicate RU106. Perhaps I should test for RU106, agree ?

      Wills

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Wills View Post
        MMaddi,

        I appreciate the help.

        One other thing: I have the somewhat rare value of 14 at DYS393. If I run my results through Cullen's halpogroup predictor, I get 90% Frisian3 which, if I've done my homework (ha) correctly, seems to indicate RU106. Perhaps I should test for RU106, agree ?

        Wills
        I'm not a big fan of Cullen's haplogroup predictor. R1b1a2 subclades are hard to predict based on STRs and I don't think that Cullen's predictor does a very good job of it.

        I'm not sure that your DYS393=14 is what's giving you a result of Frisian3. I don't think that DYS393=14 is any more characteristic of U106 than P312. Do you have DYS390=23? If so, that's why the predictor may be giving you Frisian3 as the result. About half of R1b-U106 has DYS390=23, a much higher percentage than in P312. If you had 67 markers, the best indicator would be DYS492=13. That's indicates a high probability of U106+.

        You could spend the $29 to test U106 to get that established and, with a U106+ result, join the R1b-U106 Project. See the project website in my signature. If you log into your FTDNA account and click on "Join Request" at the top of the page and provide some information about your paternal line, you would be approved for membership in the project if you have a U106+ result. However, it might make more sense to wait until Geno 2.0 results start coming in and see if it lives up to the high expectations everyone has for it.

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        • #19
          Yes, DYS390=23. I believe I'll order the Geno 2 test and upgrade to 67 or 111 markers in the near future.

          The Frisian3 result really surprised me, as I thought for sure that I'd be of "British Isle" descent rather than "German(ic)/Netherlands". I do need a better understanding of this, though.

          I'm also surprised to have only 14 matches (all at a distance of 2) at 25 markers when I'm the common R1b1a2 M269. I'm speculating that I must have a halpotype which is somewhat unusual for most R1b1a2, thus the low number of matches.

          Thanks,

          Wills

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Wills View Post
            Yes, DYS390=23. I believe I'll order the Geno 2 test and upgrade to 67 or 111 markers in the near future.

            The Frisian3 result really surprised me, as I thought for sure that I'd be of "British Isle" descent rather than "German(ic)/Netherlands". I do need a better understanding of this, though.

            I'm also surprised to have only 14 matches (all at a distance of 2) at 25 markers when I'm the common R1b1a2 M269. I'm speculating that I must have a halpotype which is somewhat unusual for most R1b1a2, thus the low number of matches.

            Thanks,

            Wills
            Do you have a ysearch account or is your haplotype listed on some project website - if so, what's the kit number? If I could look at your haplotype, I might be able to tell you more.

            By the way, due to the Anglo-Saxon migration into England after the Roman Empire left, there is a fairly high level of R1b-U106 in Englishmen, but not so much among the Welsh or Irish. R1b-U106 is mainly a northern European subclade and found at high levels where there are Germanic people, although Germans have a mix of haplogroups.

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            • #21
              Yes, My Y-Search is C2WT6.

              Wills

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Wills View Post
                Yes, My Y-Search is C2WT6.

                Wills
                Looking at your haplotype on ysearch, there's a good chance that you're L48+. That's downstream from U106. There's also a fairly good chance that you're Z8+, which is downstream from L48. Ironically, before the Z8 SNP was discovered last year, this was known as the Frisian cluster, found at high levels in the Netherlands and in England.

                I base that on your DYS390=23, DYS447=24 and GATA H4=10. Those are three of the four marker values which characterize R1b-Z8. The one you're missing is DYS464d=18 - you have 17. But that's a marker that has a high mutation rate. Your closest matches in ysearch all have DYS464d=18, so your paternal line probably just back-mutated on that marker; also, one shares your DYS442=14, which is two steps off the modal for R1b, and 4 others have DYS442=13, mutating off modal but not as much as you - see http://www.ysearch.org/research_comp...alston+ieskeni

                You can see the results of Z8+ men in the R1b-U106 Project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults under the 820 category. Notice that most of these men have British Isles ancestry, although the database is skewed toward that ancestry. There isn't much continental European ancestry in the subclade - one each for the Netherlands, Germany and Italy.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                  Looking at your haplotype on ysearch, there's a good chance that you're L48+. That's downstream from U106. There's also a fairly good chance that you're Z8+, which is downstream from L48. Ironically, before the Z8 SNP was discovered last year, this was known as the Frisian cluster, found at high levels in the Netherlands and in England.

                  I base that on your DYS390=23, DYS447=24 and GATA H4=10. Those are three of the four marker values which characterize R1b-Z8. The one you're missing is DYS464d=18 - you have 17. But that's a marker that has a high mutation rate. Your closest matches in ysearch all have DYS464d=18, so your paternal line probably just back-mutated on that marker; also, one shares your DYS442=14, which is two steps off the modal for R1b, and 4 others have DYS442=13, mutating off modal but not as much as you - see http://www.ysearch.org/research_comp...alston+ieskeni

                  You can see the results of Z8+ men in the R1b-U106 Project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults under the 820 category. Notice that most of these men have British Isles ancestry, although the database is skewed toward that ancestry. There isn't much continental European ancestry in the subclade - one each for the Netherlands, Germany and Italy.
                  Very interesting. I have much research, and further testing, to do. Thank you for taking the time to look at my results.

                  Wills

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                  • #24
                    Rudeness O/T

                    Originally posted by Lklundin View Post
                    This is the Internet. Don't let the rudeness get to you, just take what you deem useful.
                    Not to digress from this worthy exchange but am I old or does nobody say "Flame Wars" or "You got Flamed" what is the lingua franca when encounter barbs and arrows.?

                    Thanks for humoring me

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                    • #25
                      Deleted...
                      Last edited by Wills; 3 January 2013, 11:54 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Follow up

                        I upgraded to 67 Markers, and my DYS492=13.

                        Thanks,

                        Wills

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