R1b, with DYS393= 12

[Jason]

Does a confirmed R1b haplogroup with DYS 393=12 always imply a Balkan origin, rather than the usual Western European origin?

I read a paper that discussed R1b haplotype 35, which originated in the Balkans and was had a higher percentage of DYS 393=12 instead of 13.

Any thoughts?

[jvance_elliott]

R1b DYS393=12

Jason,

David B. Strong and I of the Elliott (And Border Reivers) DNA Project are both R1b's with DYS393 marker values of 12. We have engaged in some analysis and speculation on the phenomenon, which you can access at the following links:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....5_analysis.htm

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/dnareivers.htm

Sincerely,

James V. Elliott
Group Administrator
Elliott (And Border Reivers) DNA Project

[keufsson]

Jason,

David B. Strong and I of the Elliott (And Border Reivers) DNA Project are both R1b's with DYS393 marker values of 12. We have engaged in some analysis and speculation on the phenomenon, which you can access at the following links:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....5_analysis.htm

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/dnareivers.htm

Sincerely,

James V. Elliott
Group Administrator
Elliott (And Border Reivers) DNA Project

Dear Mr. Elliott
I wish i knew a bit more about the subdivisions of R1b as i know it I am R1b1c with DYS393=12 would this imply a balcan descent? please bear my ignorance, and thanks.

[moesian]

Ht 35 is Anatolian

Cinnioglu says Ht 35 is Anatolian.

For Balkans, please consider that Anatolians or Turks had occupied Balkans between 14th century and early 20th century therefore this 600 years should change y dna landscape a lot there. There are plenty of ht 35s among Balkan Turks.


Role of R1b3-M269 in the Aurignacian
and Neolithic eras


Haplogroup R1b3-M269 is one of the most common binary
lineages observed in Turkey. The phylogenetic and
spatial distribution of its equivalent in Europe (Cruciani et
al. 2002), the R1-M173 (xM17) lineage for which considerable
data exist (Semino et al. 2000a; Wells et al. 2001;
Kivisild et al. 2003) implies that R1b3-M269 was well established
throughout Paleolithic Europe, probably arriving
from West Asia contemporaneous with Aurignacian
culture. Although the phylogeographic pattern of R1b3-
M269 lineages in Europe suggest that R1-M173* ancestors
first arrived from West Asia during the Upper Paleolithic,
we cannot deduce if R1b3-M269 first entered Anatolia
via the Bosporus isthmus or from an opposite eastward
direction. However, archeological evidence supports
the view of the arrival of Aurignacian culture to Anatolia
from Europe during the Upper Paleolithic rather than
from the Iranian plateau (Kuhn 2002).
Haplogroup R1b3-M269 occurs at 40–80% frequency
in Europe and the associated STR variance suggests that
the last ice age modulated R1b3-M269 distribution to
refugia in Iberia and Asia Minor from where it subsequently
radiated during the Late Upper Paleolithic and
Holocene. The R1b3-M269 related, but opposite TaqI
p49a, f ht 15 and ht35 distributions reflect the re-peopling
of Europe from Iberia and Asia Minor during that period.
The R1b3-M269 variances and expansion time estimates
of Iberian and Turkish lineages are similar to each other
(Table 2) but higher than observed elsewhere (Table 4).
Low variances for R1b3-M269 lineages have also been
reported for Czech and Estonian populations (Kivisild et
al. 2003).

[Stevo]

It's very unlikely that any "Aurignacians" were R1b, since R1b is more than likely less than 10,000 years old. The calculation of the ages of some of the major y-haplogroups can be seen here.

In order to arrive at the outlandish ages sometimes given for some of the younger y-haplogroups like R1b, a "fudge factor" (and that is exactly what it is called) of 3 or more is employed.

The analysis of 37-marker haplotypes at the link I posted above shows what the ages of the haplogroups are without such an enormous fudge factor, ages based simply on known mutation rates.

It is also a fact that R1b haplotype variance increases as one moves east into Western and Central Asia. Greater haplotype variance is a sign of greater age. What that means is that R1b originated in Western or Central Asia between 7,000 and 8,000 years ago. That makes sense not only because the oldest R1b haplotypes are found there, but also because those haplogroups immediately ancestral to R1b - P, R, R1 - are sometimes found in Central Asia and rarely found in Europe.

Here is an article that, while it is not specifically about R1b, has some interesting R1b distribution and variance maps. Check out map D on p. 9 of the pdf version. It shows clearly the increasing variance of R1b haplotypes as one moves east into Asia from Europe. Variance was determined based on STR markers.