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  • #31
    Originally posted by owain View Post
    Wow that was like someone dumped their post doctoral thesis notes on me and then had a little debate with another post grad! I think I get what you are saying ; 12 and 25 are maybe, all very well , as long as I had a name and then I could trace everything forward - eventually, maybe. What exactly, in laymans terms is the SNP(?)? Also , what is the 'big Y test' that I have seen mentioned?
    Frankly, based on your posts about trying to keep things simple, I don't think you'd be interested at this point in SNP or Big Y testing. Anyway, it probably wouldn't help you much in your search. At the point that you've found a close match at 37, or better, 67 markers, either test may be helpful to sorting things out.

    But to answer your question....

    SNPs are yDNA markers that mutate much more slowly than the STRs (what the 12, 25, 37 and 67 refers to). The SNPs aren't as useful for the type of search you're involved in. Two men who share the same SNP, for instance U106, may not have a common ancestor in over 2,000 years. On the other hand, a close match at 67 markers tells you that the two men probably share a common ancestor in the last few hundred years, maybe as little as the last 2 or 3 generations. That's the type of matching you want.

    Big Y is a mega-SNP test. It tests over 10 million locations on the y chromosome, looking for both known SNPs and unknown SNPs that are much more recent. The unknown more recent SNPs discovered may be shared by only the last few generations of a paternal line. So, once you find a close match at 67 markers, a Big Y test may be useful in estimating how recently the common ancestor lived. However, be advised it's not cheap. When not on sale, Big Y costs $575 and both you and the match would have to take it.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by owain View Post
      ah, W,(Mr.)... you have no guarantees of a good meal when you sit down to eat in a restaurant, only expectations. Whatever the advertising might suggest,you know, deep down, that beer will not make you bullet proof or irresistible to the opposite sex. The scale of adoption is quite scary if you look at the figures and what most adoptees understand better than anything else is that absolutely nothing is certain or as it first appears ; we learnt that lesson early. I do agree that the the potential to get taken is quite high though.
      Yes being adopted myself I have found that most adoption records prior to the year 2000 are sealed by the court and a person seeking this information has to prove to a judge that there is a reason to unseal these records. Something about the stigma of being a child of a single mother etc. These laws that were supposed to protect adoptees really harms us.
      Being in my 50's the typical question I am asked at the doctor's office is about my families past illness or other health problems. I have no clue if the men in my biological family has a high risk of cancer, heart disease or any other health problems that are handed down to each generation.

      It would be really nice if these records could be unsealed just by proving who the adoptee is and this information given to them without having to fly across the country and hire a lawyer to convince a judge that there is an obvious need for this information.

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      • #33
        @owain

        Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
        Originally posted by owain View Post
        Wow that was like someone dumped their post doctoral thesis notes on me and then had a little debate with another post grad! I think I get what you are saying ; 12 and 25 are maybe, all very well , as long as I had a name and then I could trace everything forward - eventually, maybe. What exactly, in laymans terms is the SNP(?)? Also , what is the 'big Y test' that I have seen mentioned?
        Frankly, based on your posts about trying to keep things simple, I don't think you'd be interested at this point in SNP or Big Y testing. Anyway, it probably wouldn't help you much in your search. At the point that you've found a close match at 37, or better, 67 markers, either test may be helpful to sorting things out.

        But to answer your question....

        SNPs are yDNA markers that mutate much more slowly than the STRs (what the 12, 25, 37 and 67 refers to). The SNPs aren't as useful for the type of search you're involved in. Two men who share the same SNP, for instance U106, may not have a common ancestor in over 2,000 years. On the other hand, a close match at 67 markers tells you that the two men probably share a common ancestor in the last few hundred years, maybe as little as the last 2 or 3 generations. That's the type of matching you want.

        Big Y is a mega-SNP test. It tests over 10 million locations on the y chromosome, looking for both known SNPs and unknown SNPs that are much more recent. The unknown more recent SNPs discovered may be shared by only the last few generations of a paternal line. So, once you find a close match at 67 markers, a Big Y test may be useful in estimating how recently the common ancestor lived. However, be advised it's not cheap. When not on sale, Big Y costs $575 and both you and the match would have to take it.
        Although DNA was discovered 150 years ago, it is only in the recent years that DNA concepts are becoming a part of our everyday knowledge. In 1992, you most likely needed to be at least a post grad in high energy physics to use what is now a ubiquitous World Wide Web accessed universally over the Internet. Click to open a new page in a browser? In 1992, that would sound to most of people in the World as some magical spell.

        One does not need to understand internals of DNA testing, to be very comfortable in using the results. However, as with everything, there are some fundamental concepts that need to be mastered. Do you feel that it is overwhelming? Let me answer by another question Do you have a driving licence? That is very complicated!

        W. (Mr.)

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        • #34
          What do "fake" birth family people hope to gain? With DNA testing, no one can pretend for long.

          Comment


          • #35
            There seems to be a touch of hostility to the fact that I lack a fascination for genetics and to be honest W.(MR) if this annoys you then stop replying to me. Please,I don't want to start some huge on-line feud. This is a forum for adopted people or those affected by adoption and I would suggest that the people viewing and posting here have a very specific goal. I don't know if you have been affected by adoption, regardless my interests are clearly not the same as yours.Yes it might make my search quicker and easier if I were to take a course in genetics, but I have my own business , thirty staff and I work about eighty hours a week. I do not have that kind of spare time. Yes I drive . No I do not want to discuss driving and its complexities, when I am not driving. When I have reached my destination I simply turn off the ignition , lock the door and walk away. When I reach my stated destination with DNA testing I will walk away from FTDNA in a very similar manner. Nonetheless, thank you very much for your invaluable input and advice.

            Comment


            • #36
              You would be amazed at how unreceptive some people are when learning that Mom or Dad or Grandma or Grandpa have kept a 60 year old secret. I know first-hand. Emails that start out cordial and full of interest suddenly go dead. Nope, not going to get the original birth certificate release from them.

              If this happened in my family I would meet them at the courthouse the next day to help them get their birth certificate released. But not everyone reacts that way, or thinks it is a basic human right.

              Comment


              • #37
                Adoption : the gift that keeps on giving!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Worthwhile things take time and effort

                  We all have busy schedules. If there appears to be tension, it is because folks are providing practical advice and the response isn't the easy answer that was hoped. Although with the suggested testing, it could (although unlikely) be an easy answer. People of all sorts of backgrounds learn enough to be productive with their DNA results. Don't sell yourself short.

                  If there is willingness to hire somebody, I'm sure the cost of tests is not consequential. So, start testing! :-). Some Y tests take 2-3 months, so there is no immediate answers. It's the nature of the beast.

                  Some states have started allowing access to original birth certificates (IL, OH, etc). Hopefully you luck out in that regard.

                  Let us know what do and how it turns out. I wish you sincere luck.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    @owain

                    Originally posted by BBA64 View Post
                    We all have busy schedules. If there appears to be tension, it is because folks are providing practical advice and the response isn't the easy answer that was hoped. Although with the suggested testing, it could (although unlikely) be an easy answer. People of all sorts of backgrounds learn enough to be productive with their DNA results. Don't sell yourself short.

                    If there is willingness to hire somebody, I'm sure the cost of tests is not consequential. So, start testing! :-). Some Y tests take 2-3 months, so there is no immediate answers. It's the nature of the beast.

                    Some states have started allowing access to original birth certificates (IL, OH, etc). Hopefully you luck out in that regard.

                    Let us know what do and how it turns out. I wish you sincere luck.
                    I hope I did not cross the fine line between sharing experience and preaching .

                    Mr. W.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      No MrW you didn't. I crossed the line between being tired and taking out on people who were trying to help. Sorry.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Hi BBA64. The problem I have is that the fathers name is listed as 'unknown' and my birth mother has had a stroke and is in a vegetative state. It is more than possible that the father was not even aware of the pregnancy. I am not selling myself short - there is not much that I can't master when I put my mind to it (with the exception of golf). I just don't have enough time in my day, or room in my head to do it justice and that is why I asked the question about some kind of genealogical analysis service or agent to interpret my results.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Cece Moore has a very good reputation but is booked at the moment. She may be able to provide a referral.

                          http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/p/consulting.html

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ec1970 View Post
                            You would be amazed at how unreceptive some people are when learning that Mom or Dad or Grandma or Grandpa have kept a 60 year old secret. I know first-hand. Emails that start out cordial and full of interest suddenly go dead. Nope, not going to get the original birth certificate release from them.

                            If this happened in my family I would meet them at the courthouse the next day to help them get their birth certificate released. But not everyone reacts that way, or thinks it is a basic human right.
                            I think it would depend on the individual state's laws as to whether a half sibling would be allowed to get a birth certificate for someone else. In Illinois I can obtain my birth certificate, and,or a child's birth record that also contains my name. I wouldn't be able to get my brother's certificate since I'm not named on his records.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by owain View Post
                              Thanks ec1970. I followed your instructions.

                              I haven't been back on FTDNA since May. I just noticed that their default Y-DNA search now produces the results in the order that I outlined in this thread back in May.

                              Glad they finally straightened that out. It produces much more relevant results.

                              Comment

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