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Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer Admixture from Gedmatch??

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  • Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer Admixture from Gedmatch??

    Utilizing Eurogenes from Gedmatch.com I ran my uploaded DNA through the Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Admixture Proportions utility. I received the following results:

    Anatolian Farmer 10.03 %
    Baltic Hunter-Gatherer 52.73 %
    Middle Eastern Herded 1.07 %
    Mediterranean Farmer 33.81 %

    I am from the U.S. with a known ethnic paper trail to Luxembourg, Norway, Scotland and unknown (adopted grand mother).

    My question is: Given what we know about the origins of all European farmers coming from Anatolia originally, how do the populations of 'Anatolian farmer' and 'Mediterranean farmer' differ?

  • #2
    Good question!

    Comment


    • #3
      here is mine, what do you make of it?

      Population
      Anatolian Farmer 10.93
      Baltic Hunter Gatherer 54.01
      Middle Eastern Herder -
      East Asian Farmer -
      South American Hunter Gatherer -
      South Asian Hunter Gatherer 1.12
      North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer -
      East African Pastoralist 0.52
      Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.55
      Mediterranean Farmer 32.51
      Pygmy Hunter Gatherer 0.35
      Bantu Farmer -

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Jerry.

        Your percentages look very close to mine. Off the cuff I'd say you have a mix of northern European and British Isles ancestry. From what I've read Sweden and Norway received a migration from the Med. Farmer peoples later than the rest of Europe which is why those of us who have known ancestry there show up with so much mediterranean in our mix. Am I even close with my guess?

        I'm still curious to see if anyone has any theories as to what the difference is between Anatolian Farmer and Mediterranean Farmer.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Laurie_Robinson View Post
          Hi Jerry.

          Your percentages look very close to mine. Off the cuff I'd say you have a mix of northern European and British Isles ancestry. From what I've read Sweden and Norway received a migration from the Med. Farmer peoples later than the rest of Europe which is why those of us who have known ancestry there show up with so much mediterranean in our mix. Am I even close with my guess?
          I think that your guess is fairly accurate. In general those with mostly southern European ancestry will have more farmer ancestry than those with mostly northern European ancestry. And those with mostly northern European ancestry will have more hunter-gatherer ancestry than those with southern European ancestry. This is due to the fact that farming was introduced into Europe significantly sooner in southern Europe than in northern Europe.

          For comparison, here are my percentages using this Eurogenes admixture calculator. My ancestry is 100% Sicilian/southern Italian.

          Anatolian Farmer 25.57
          Baltic Hunter Gatherer 19.35
          Middle Eastern Herder 16.32
          East African Pastoralist 0.86
          Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.21
          Mediterranean Farmer 37.32
          Pygmy Hunter Gatherer 0.37

          Originally posted by Laurie_Robinson View Post
          I'm still curious to see if anyone has any theories as to what the difference is between Anatolian Farmer and Mediterranean Farmer.
          My guess is that since farming was brought into Europe directly from Anatolia about 8-9,000 years ago, the first places these Anatolian farmers settled was in the Balkans and Italy. They may have intermarried with the hunter-gatherer populations there already, but the genetic differences between them weren't that significant, at least compared to the hunter-gatherer populations in northern Europe.

          Then as the descendants of these Mediterranean farmers (a mix of Mediterranean hunter-gatherers and Anatolian farmers) spread northward across Europe, they mixed with northern European hunter-gatherers. But their DNA was different enough from the original Anatolian farmer DNA that admixture analysis is able to distinguish them as a separate category from Anatolian farmer.

          I suspect it also has something to do with Caucasus hunter-gatherer DNA, which is different from the northern European hunter-gatherer DNA. Although both were the dominant populations before the Neolithic period replaced hunter-gather foraging as the dominant economic activity with farming, they were isolated from each other geographically, so did not represent the same populations. Read this post by the developer of the Eurogenes admixture calculators about Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers at http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/0...y-western.html.

          I think that the Mediterranean hunter-gatherers in the Balkans and Italy who mixed with the Anatolian farmers probably had a significant amount of Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer DNA from earlier migrations from the Caucasus to Europe. So, they were basically already distant cousins of the Anatolian farmers who came later.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Laurie_Robinson View Post
            Hi Jerry.

            Your percentages look very close to mine. Off the cuff I'd say you have a mix of northern European and British Isles ancestry. From what I've read Sweden and Norway received a migration from the Med. Farmer peoples later than the rest of Europe which is why those of us who have known ancestry there show up with so much mediterranean in our mix. Am I even close with my guess?

            I'm still curious to see if anyone has any theories as to what the difference is between Anatolian Farmer and Mediterranean Farmer.
            Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
            I think that your guess is fairly accurate. In general those with mostly southern European ancestry will have more farmer ancestry than those with mostly northern European ancestry. And those with mostly northern European ancestry will have more hunter-gatherer ancestry than those with southern European ancestry. This is due to the fact that farming was introduced into Europe significantly sooner in southern Europe than in northern Europe.

            For comparison, here are my percentages using this Eurogenes admixture calculator. My ancestry is 100% Sicilian/southern Italian.

            Anatolian Farmer 25.57
            Baltic Hunter Gatherer 19.35
            Middle Eastern Herder 16.32
            East African Pastoralist 0.86
            Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.21
            Mediterranean Farmer 37.32
            Pygmy Hunter Gatherer 0.37



            My guess is that since farming was brought into Europe directly from Anatolia about 8-9,000 years ago, the first places these Anatolian farmers settled was in the Balkans and Italy. They may have intermarried with the hunter-gatherer populations there already, but the genetic differences between them weren't that significant, at least compared to the hunter-gatherer populations in northern Europe.

            Then as the descendants of these Mediterranean farmers (a mix of Mediterranean hunter-gatherers and Anatolian farmers) spread northward across Europe, they mixed with northern European hunter-gatherers. But their DNA was different enough from the original Anatolian farmer DNA that admixture analysis is able to distinguish them as a separate category from Anatolian farmer.

            I suspect it also has something to do with Caucasus hunter-gatherer DNA, which is different from the northern European hunter-gatherer DNA. Although both were the dominant populations before the Neolithic period replaced hunter-gather foraging as the dominant economic activity with farming, they were isolated from each other geographically, so did not represent the same populations. Read this post by the developer of the Eurogenes admixture calculators about Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers at http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/0...y-western.html.

            I think that the Mediterranean hunter-gatherers in the Balkans and Italy who mixed with the Anatolian farmers probably had a significant amount of Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer DNA from earlier migrations from the Caucasus to Europe. So, they were basically already distant cousins of the Anatolian farmers who came later.

            you're both somewhat correct. I am about equal thirds English (Kent), German (Bremen) and Italian (Calabria via Albania).
            Last edited by JerryS.; 10 May 2017, 03:18 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              This is a Polish person, all 8 great grandparents from NW Poland:

              Population
              Anatolian Farmer 7.24
              Baltic Hunter Gatherer 68.79
              South American Hunter Gatherer 0.39
              South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.72
              North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.28
              East African Pastoralist 0.48
              Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.15
              Mediterranean Farmer 21.39
              Bantu Farmer 0.55

              Here is mine, 87.5% UK/Irish and 12.5% German/Swiss American Colonial:

              Population
              Anatolian Farmer 7.09
              Baltic Hunter Gatherer 55.19
              South American Hunter Gatherer 0.58
              South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.86
              North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.39
              Mediterranean Farmer 35.82
              Bantu Farmer 0.07

              Comment


              • #8
                "My guess is that since farming was brought into Europe directly from Anatolia about 8-9,000 years ago, the first places these Anatolian farmers settled was in the Balkans and Italy. They may have intermarried with the hunter-gatherer populations there already, but the genetic differences between them weren't that significant, at least compared to the hunter-gatherer populations in northern Europe.

                Then as the descendants of these Mediterranean farmers (a mix of Mediterranean hunter-gatherers and Anatolian farmers) spread northward across Europe, they mixed with northern European hunter-gatherers. But their DNA was different enough from the original Anatolian farmer DNA that admixture analysis is able to distinguish them as a separate category from Anatolian farmer.

                I suspect it also has something to do with Caucasus hunter-gatherer DNA, which is different from the northern European hunter-gatherer DNA. Although both were the dominant populations before the Neolithic period replaced hunter-gather foraging as the dominant economic activity with farming, they were isolated from each other geographically, so did not represent the same populations. Read this post by the developer of the Eurogenes admixture calculators about Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers at http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/0...y-western.html.

                I think that the Mediterranean hunter-gatherers in the Balkans and Italy who mixed with the Anatolian farmers probably had a significant amount of Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer DNA from earlier migrations from the Caucasus to Europe. So, they were basically already distant cousins of the Anatolian farmers who came later.[/QUOTE]"


                Thank you so much for your reply. I never thought of the Mediterranean farmers as being a mix of Anatolian farmers with Mediterranean hunter-gathers but that makes a lot of sense to me.
                Last edited by Laurie_Robinson; 10 May 2017, 10:39 PM. Reason: Needed quotes from MMaddy above.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just thought I would add a comparision of my Maternal Grandfather (half Norwegian/half swedish)

                  Anatolian Farmer 6.85
                  Baltic Hunter Gatherer 64.53
                  East Asian Farmer 0.47
                  South American Hunter Gatherer 1.09
                  Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.13
                  Mediterranean Farmer 26.93

                  and My Paternal Grandfather (half scottish/half irish)
                  Anatolian Farmer 8.18
                  Baltic Hunter Gatherer 57.97
                  South American Hunter Gatherer 1.26
                  South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.39
                  Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.15
                  Mediterranean Farmer 31.91
                  Bantu Farmer 0.12

                  My Paternal Grandmother (Eastern Europe, born in Romania)
                  Anatolian Farmer 11.93
                  Baltic Hunter Gatherer 55.08
                  Middle Eastern Herder 5.19
                  South American Hunter Gatherer 0.76
                  South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.46
                  North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.48
                  East African Pastoralist 0.43
                  Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.68
                  Mediterranean Farmer 24.57
                  Bantu Farmer 0.43

                  Mine with the added mixture of an English maternal Grandmother
                  Anatolian Farmer 7.41
                  Baltic Hunter Gatherer 59.83
                  South American Hunter Gatherer 1.45
                  South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.35
                  Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.21
                  Mediterranean Farmer 30.59
                  Bantu Farmer 0.16
                  Last edited by prairielad; 10 May 2017, 11:20 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Laurie_Robinson View Post
                    Thank you so much for your reply. I never thought of the Mediterranean farmers as being a mix of Anatolian farmers with Mediterranean hunter-gathers but that makes a lot of sense to me.
                    On the same day that this thread started, a new study was published online, which is titled "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe." You can download the pdf file at http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...35616.full.pdf.

                    This is a very ambitious study which "generated new genome-wide data from 204 ancient humans (196 reported for the first time), from the Balkan Peninsula, the Carpathian Basin, the North Pontic Steppe, and neighboring regions mostly dated to between 12,000 and 1000 BCE." (page 4)

                    The study takes up some questions that are relevant to the discussion in this thread, so I'll provide some quotes. It's worth taking the time to read it.

                    On page 6: "We report new data from hunter-gatherers from France, Sicily and Croatia, as well as higher coverage data from three previously published hunter-gatherers from France and Germany. The Sicilian and Croatian individuals dating to 12,000 and 6100 BCE cluster closely with western hunter-gatherers, including individuals from Loschbour (Luxembourg, 6100 BCE), Bichon (Switzerland, 11,700 BCE), and Villabruna (Italy 12,000 BCE). These results demonstrate that the “western hunter-gatherer” population was widely distributed from the Atlantic seaboard of Europe in the West, to Sicily in the South, to the Balkan Peninsula in the Southeast, for at least six thousand years, strengthening the evidence that the western hunter gatherers represent a population that expanded from a southeastern European refugium following the last Ice Age around 15,000 years ago–in the process displacing or admixing with the existing population of western Europe."

                    This seems to shoot down my idea that there was a "Mediterranean hunter-gatherer" population that was distinct from the hunter-gatherers in northern Europe. However, one Sicilian hunter-gatherer is slim evidence to say that all hunter-gatherers in the Mediterranean were similar to norther European hunter-gatherers. Also, see the quote below about early southern Greek farmers.

                    On pages 7-8: "Neolithic populations from present-day Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia and Romania
                    290 cluster closely with the Neolithic populations of northwestern Anatolia (Figure 1). Modeling Balkan Neolithic populations as a mixture of Anatolia Neolithic, western hunter-gatherer and Ukraine Mesolithic, we estimate that Balkan Neolithic populations derive 98% (95%
                    293 confidence interval [CI]; 97-100%) of their ancestry from populations related to those of the northwestern Anatolian Neolithic."

                    That's very clear on how closely early southeastern European farmers were descended from northwest Anatolians.

                    On page 9: "We confirm that Mediterranean populations, represented in our study by individuals of the Impressa complex from Croatia and the Epicardial Early Neolithic from
                    Spain, are closely related to the Danubian population represented by the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) from central Europe and show that both groups are closely related to the Balkan Neolithic population. These three populations form a clade with Northwest Anatolians as an outgroup, consistent with a single migration from a population closely related to the northwestern Anatolian Neolithic farming population into the Balkan peninsula, which then split into two populations that followed the Danubian and Mediterranean routes."

                    This shows that Mediterranean Europeans during the Neolithic period as far as Spain were also descended from northwestern Anatolians, via southeastern Europe.

                    On page 10: "We find that four southern Greek (Peloponnese) Neolithic individuals – three from Diros Cave and one from Franchthi Cave, plus one previously published individual from Diros – are not consistent with descending from the same source population as other European farmers...

                    "One possibility is that this independent migration is related to an earlier Aceramic Neolithic in Greece that was derived from the pre-pottery Neolithic (PPNB) of Cyprus and the Levant. Under this model, the earliest Neolithic populations in Greece migrated from the Levant, perhaps via the southwestern Anatolian coast as early as 7000 BCE, but the majority of Neolithic ancestry arrived around 500 years later via a route that passed through northwestern Anatolia. The predictions of this hypothesis could be further
                    391 tested with genome-wide data of Early Neolithic individuals from Cyprus, Crete and southwest Anatolia."

                    So, they find there was a small number of Neolithic farmers in southern Greece who descended from an earlier migration, from the Levant (Jordan, Israel, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon) and southwestern Anatolia. These southern Greek farmers were not descendants of the later northwest Anatolian migration. Is this possibly what the Eurogenes HG vs. farmer calculator is referring to with its "Mediterranean farmer" category?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "So, they find there was a small number of Neolithic farmers in southern Greece who descended from an earlier migration, from the Levant (Jordan, Israel, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon) and southwestern Anatolia. These southern Greek farmers were not descendants of the later northwest Anatolian migration. Is this possibly what the Eurogenes HG vs. farmer calculator is referring to with its "Mediterranean farmer" category?"


                      Ok, this could very well be it. I do remember reading somewhere that there were hypothesized to be more than one group of farmers who left the Levant/Anatolia by different routes. So very interesting to me the wide distribution across so much of Europe. Even with this being so many thousands of years ago the FTDNA My Origins gives me 9% South Eastern Europe and a 5% Asia Minor ancestry along with the expected British Isles, Scandinavian and Central European ancestry. Everything you referred to in the quotes about supports that this ancestry is still evident today. I am definitely going to read the article from the link you provided.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I wonder if my Dad's results are picking up results he gets on other tests hinting at some ancestry from the Levant region as Middle Eastern? He is mostly British with some distant Irish and some brick walls (He gets 1.1% Eastern European, 0.3% Middle Eastern North African and 0.1% AJ at 23andme, 17% Med Islander at DNALand, above average East Med/Red Sea at Gedmatch for a Brit and I get Jewish at Ancestry which my Mum doesn't):
                        Anatolian Farmer 9.32
                        Baltic Hunter Gatherer 53.05
                        Middle Eastern Herder 2.30
                        South American Hunter Gatherer -
                        South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.59
                        East African Pastoralist 0.07
                        Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.34
                        Mediterranean Farmer 34.33

                        I also get the same amount of Middle Eastern Herder but my Mum gets none!
                        Last edited by Boudicca1; 12 May 2017, 01:14 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Boudicca1 View Post
                          I wonder if my Dad's results are picking up results he gets on other tests hinting at some ancestry from the Levant region as Middle Eastern? He is mostly British with some distant Irish and some brick walls (He gets 1.1% Eastern European, 0.3% Middle Eastern North African and 0.1% AJ at 23andme, 17% Med Islander at DNALand, above average East Med/Red Sea at Gedmatch for a Brit and I get Jewish at Ancestry which my Mum doesn't):
                          Anatolian Farmer 9.32
                          Baltic Hunter Gatherer 53.05
                          Middle Eastern Herder 2.30
                          South American Hunter Gatherer -
                          South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.59
                          East African Pastoralist 0.07
                          Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.34
                          Mediterranean Farmer 34.33

                          I also get the same amount of Middle Eastern Herder but my Mum gets none!
                          Do you get any Jewish Diaspora with My Origins?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Does it all make sense? Our autosomal DNA contains info only from the latest 10 generations or so. All characteristics related to farmers\hunters from thousands years ago were completely replaced with more modern DNA.
                            Please correct me if I am wrong.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by B198251 View Post
                              Does it all make sense? Our autosomal DNA contains info only from the latest 10 generations or so. All characteristics related to farmers\hunters from thousands years ago were completely replaced with more modern DNA.
                              Please correct me if I am wrong.
                              What I have found is that the whole world was a melting pot for DNA during the 18th Century facilitated by the age of sail. Very few people recognize the possibilities. Basically all admixture analyses are undermined by bad assumptions. They make good parlour games and are entertaining, but are not worth expending too much effort in trying to figure them out at this stage.

                              Jack Wyatt

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