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  • Irish connection to the Basques and looks.

    Hello,

    Since this is my first message I'll do a little introduction:

    Not that long ago my job contract ended and right afterwards I catchup with an Irish friend. Of course we had a long talk and at one point he asked about how things where doing here and how my job was doing. Situation here is "ok", it is relatively easy to get a job if you're an IT technician however 90% of the jobs are temporal and not well payed, after I explained this to my friend first words he said where: Come to Ireland, there're lots of IT jobs.

    And just like that it was decided. However and even tho I'm already searching for a job there I wanted to know Irelands story and of course decide to start from the very beginning so I went ahead and search for the origin of the Irish people.

    I was expecting to find a strong connection to the Celts and boy was I surprise when I just kept finding articles linking them to the Basques.

    Funny as it sounds I was disappointed, I'm basque and suddenly the Irish people had lost all the exoticness . I kept doing my "research" as I was intrigued by this discovery.

    So Irish man, specially those from the west have a 99% Haplogroup R1b which is (I might be wrong with this) which link them with northern Spain people and specially the basques with a 90% of Haplogroup R1b.

    As said before, I might be wrong with my last words as unfortunately I'm far from being an expert on genetics.

    In some articles they claim that Irish had kept "pure" so to speak and this thought crossed my head:

    Shouldn't the Irish look like Basques then?

    And might I say it, usually there is no similarities. Some basques do have lighter skins others not, blue or green eyes are common along with brown eyes as well, however red hairs are very uncommon and there is the same amount of black, brown and blonde air people. Face factions are what marks the difference.

    I know a few people who just by the looks I know they're basques, usually this is due to face factions. I know people who are very light skinned and with blue/green eyes who look very basque but I also know people who have brown eyes and are not light skinned who can be identify as basque right away as well.

    Of course, there are plenty of basques I wouldn't recognize as such by just the looks. From all the people I know only one looks Irish even tho his surnames are basques. And truth be told, he looks 100% Irish.

    So my question is, should Irish and Basques who are genetically close to each other look alike or not?

    Thank you for reading and specially thank you for your time.

    Kind Regards,

    Mr. History

  • #2
    Originally posted by Mr. History View Post
    So my question is, should Irish and Basques who are genetically close to each other look alike or not?
    The Irish and the Basques are not that similar genetically. They do share R-M269 but so do millions of western European men.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mr. History View Post
      . . .So my question is, should Irish and Basques who are genetically close to each other look alike or not?

      . . .
      The Y chromosome is an incredibly narrow portion of a person's overall ancestry and genetic makeup. I wouldn't even presume to try to correlate physical appearance with Y haplogroup.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by kevinduffy View Post
        The Irish and the Basques are not that similar genetically. They do share R-M269 but so do millions of western European men.
        Originally posted by Frederator View Post
        The Y chromosome is an incredibly narrow portion of a person's overall ancestry and genetic makeup. I wouldn't even presume to try to correlate physical appearance with Y haplogroup.
        Hello and thank you for the answers,

        According to the information I have found Irish people are genetically unrelated to the Celts and will speak of basques (In other articles also of what's northern Spain now) as the source of Irish ancestors.

        On this article Basques are presented as:

        The latest research into Irish DNA has confirmed that the early inhabitants of Ireland were not directly descended from the Keltoi of central Europe. In fact the closest genetic relatives of the Irish in Europe are to be found in the north of Spain in the region known as the Basque Country. These same ancestors are shared to an extent with the people of Britain - especially the Scottish.

        http://www.sott.net/article/263587-D...iously-thought

        On Wikipedia you'll find:

        The existence of an especially strong genetic association between the Irish and the Basques, one even closer than the relationship between other west Europeans, was first challenged in 2005,[27] and in 2007 scientists began looking at the possibility of a more recent Mesolithic- or even Neolithic-era entrance of R1b into Europe.[28] A new study published in 2010 by Balaresque et al. implies either a Mesolithic- or Neolithic- (not Paleolithic) era entrance of R1b into Europe.[29] However, all these genetic studies are in agreement that the Irish and Basque (along with the Welsh) share the highest percentage of R1b populations.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people

        If you google "Origin of the Irish people" or similar you'll find other places saying the same thing.

        However, if the Irish are not so "connected" genetically with the basques or other people from northern Spain from what other people do they descent?

        I'm confused as according to most articles Irish are not genetically connected to Celts which are basically the main "external" movement on what's now current Ireland.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm not into population genetics myself as I don't believe the study has any practical use.

          That said, the fact that the Ireland has been subject to many different strands of immigration throughout the centuries is not a secret. But even if the majority of its genetic heritage could have originated in the Basque country, remember that was many thousands of years ago, when the total population was like 200 people.

          Or maybe not 200 people, but closer to 200 people than the 7 million it is today. Heavily implying, in any case, that even a genuinely Basque founding population in Ireland would have experienced heavy genetic drift away from whatever the current modal characteristics in the modern Basque country might be.

          Which is why I don't bother tinkering with that stuff.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mr. History View Post
            Hello and thank you for the answers,

            According to the information I have found Irish people are genetically unrelated to the Celts and will speak of basques (In other articles also of what's northern Spain now) as the source of Irish ancestors.

            On this article Basques are presented as:

            The latest research into Irish DNA has confirmed that the early inhabitants of Ireland were not directly descended from the Keltoi of central Europe. In fact the closest genetic relatives of the Irish in Europe are to be found in the north of Spain in the region known as the Basque Country. These same ancestors are shared to an extent with the people of Britain - especially the Scottish.

            http://www.sott.net/article/263587-D...iously-thought

            On Wikipedia you'll find:

            The existence of an especially strong genetic association between the Irish and the Basques, one even closer than the relationship between other west Europeans, was first challenged in 2005,[27] and in 2007 scientists began looking at the possibility of a more recent Mesolithic- or even Neolithic-era entrance of R1b into Europe.[28] A new study published in 2010 by Balaresque et al. implies either a Mesolithic- or Neolithic- (not Paleolithic) era entrance of R1b into Europe.[29] However, all these genetic studies are in agreement that the Irish and Basque (along with the Welsh) share the highest percentage of R1b populations.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people

            If you google "Origin of the Irish people" or similar you'll find other places saying the same thing.

            However, if the Irish are not so "connected" genetically with the basques or other people from northern Spain from what other people do they descent?

            I'm confused as according to most articles Irish are not genetically connected to Celts which are basically the main "external" movement on what's now current Ireland.
            Hello Mr History,

            Investigations, research and discoveries in Y-DNA, mtDNA and autosomal DNA have exploded exponentially in the last 10 years.

            R1b (M269) is a huge haplogroup with many subclades. These subclades then branch out into many of their own subclades and so on. With more and more people taking tests such as the Big Y new subclades are almost being discovered on a daily basis.

            Here is the ytree for one of the major subclades (and there are a few!) of R1b R-L21: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=3

            Y-DNA analysis projects and companies have been set up to try and determine how many subclades there are and try and find connections between people who share subclades right down to the terminal SNP.

            Here is an example of the R1b YTree at yfull.com: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

            This may appear a little confusing as different testing companies will have different terminology for subclades and terminal SNPs.

            The Irish DNA project is currently at the analysis phase to determine historic migrations to Ireland by analysing autosomal DNA, which is far more informative than Y-DNA or mtDNA alone: http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Irish_DNA_Atlas_Project

            A similar project called the "People of the British Isles" has also taken place: http://www.isogg.org/wiki/People_of_the_British_Isles

            Both of these projects are discussed at length on the forum Anthrogenica.com

            http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...minary-Results
            http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...h-Isles-Latest

            There is a great deal of activity on this forum everyday and I would encourage you to read as many posts as possible.

            Here is a list of results for "Irish and Basque": http://www.anthrogenica.com/search.php?searchid=742028

            In recent years there has been considerable DNA testing conducted on ancient remains in Europe and parts of Asia. While this has helped with our understanding of ancient and modern DNA, scientific studies have had a hard time keeping up!

            Comment


            • #7
              My mtDNA Haplogroup is H1B3 which gives a potential indication of Spanish Basque. Also from what I can tell our documented female-line is from Ireland. I read somewhere that the Spanish Basque at one time invaded Ireland, so I left my research at that for the time being. My matches for the mtDNA test have either Ireland or Scotland as the birth location of their most distant female ancestor.

              Within the autosomal time-frame my family has seen admixture with other ethnicities. So this ancestry is not reflected in my appearance.

              N21163, I'll be reading up on the links you provided. Thanks, they look interesting.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mr. History View Post
                Hello and thank you for the answers,

                According to the information I have found Irish people are genetically unrelated to the Celts and will speak of basques (In other articles also of what's northern Spain now) as the source of Irish ancestors.

                On this article Basques are presented as:

                The latest research into Irish DNA has confirmed that the early inhabitants of Ireland were not directly descended from the Keltoi of central Europe. In fact the closest genetic relatives of the Irish in Europe are to be found in the north of Spain in the region known as the Basque Country. These same ancestors are shared to an extent with the people of Britain - especially the Scottish.

                http://www.sott.net/article/263587-D...iously-thought

                On Wikipedia you'll find:

                The existence of an especially strong genetic association between the Irish and the Basques, one even closer than the relationship between other west Europeans, was first challenged in 2005,[27] and in 2007 scientists began looking at the possibility of a more recent Mesolithic- or even Neolithic-era entrance of R1b into Europe.[28] A new study published in 2010 by Balaresque et al. implies either a Mesolithic- or Neolithic- (not Paleolithic) era entrance of R1b into Europe.[29] However, all these genetic studies are in agreement that the Irish and Basque (along with the Welsh) share the highest percentage of R1b populations.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people

                If you google "Origin of the Irish people" or similar you'll find other places saying the same thing.

                However, if the Irish are not so "connected" genetically with the basques or other people from northern Spain from what other people do they descent?

                I'm confused as according to most articles Irish are not genetically connected to Celts which are basically the main "external" movement on what's now current Ireland.
                Some of the most important info and links are missing from that list, apart from what N21163 gave you, although some can be found by reading enough threads on Anthrogenica.

                1. There are a lot of anti-migrationist archaeologists so they have a bias when they provide hypotheses about ancient peoples. In the last few years the tide has started to turn. Jean Manco has written two books, Ancestral Journeys and Blood of the Celts, without that bias that are very good when it comes to the history of Europe. You should read them both.

                2. Basques are mostly DF27 while the Irish are mostly L21 which separated about 4,500 years ago which gave them enough time to look different. For the subclades see the Supplementary Info at http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015114a.html Mainly table S1 for the frequency of DF27 in Basques. You can ignore the abstract because it has the anti-migrationist stance. The dating of DF27 and L21 comes from YFull, http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/ , and ancient DNA such as the P312 found in Bell Beaker remains.

                3. It is hypothesized that L21 and DF27 come from the Eurasian Steppe about 4,500 years ago. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14317.html Dr. Mike Hammer recently gave a slideshow on R1b in Europe at the FTDNA 11th International Conference on Genetic Genealogy. http://www.slideshare.net/FamilyTree...ent-dna-update There is no anti-migrationist bias in those links.

                4. Autosomally the Basque plot near the French and Spaniards in PCA plots. See http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...e13673_F2.html and http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/1...fusion-of.html So they have some other ancestry that makes them different from people further north.

                5. The Celts Blood Iron And Sacrifice With Alice Roberts And Neil Oliver which can be found on Youtube provides a more recent view of the history of the Celts and their connections between Iberia and Ireland. There are still some statements that are a bit anti-migrationist.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Armando View Post
                  Some of the most important info and links are missing from that list, apart from what N21163 gave you, although some can be found by reading enough threads on Anthrogenica.

                  1. There are a lot of anti-migrationist archaeologists so they have a bias when they provide hypotheses about ancient peoples. In the last few years the tide has started to turn. Jean Manco has written two books, Ancestral Journeys and Blood of the Celts, without that bias that are very good when it comes to the history of Europe. You should read them both.

                  2. Basques are mostly DF27 while the Irish are mostly L21 which separated about 4,500 years ago which gave them enough time to look different. For the subclades see the Supplementary Info at http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015114a.html Mainly table S1 for the frequency of DF27 in Basques. You can ignore the abstract because it has the anti-migrationist stance. The dating of DF27 and L21 comes from YFull, http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/ , and ancient DNA such as the P312 found in Bell Beaker remains.

                  3. It is hypothesized that L21 and DF27 come from the Eurasian Steppe about 4,500 years ago. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14317.html Dr. Mike Hammer recently gave a slideshow on R1b in Europe at the FTDNA 11th International Conference on Genetic Genealogy. http://www.slideshare.net/FamilyTree...ent-dna-update There is no anti-migrationist bias in those links.

                  4. Autosomally the Basque plot near the French and Spaniards in PCA plots. See http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...e13673_F2.html and http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/1...fusion-of.html So they have some other ancestry that makes them different from people further north.

                  5. The Celts Blood Iron And Sacrifice With Alice Roberts And Neil Oliver which can be found on Youtube provides a more recent view of the history of the Celts and their connections between Iberia and Ireland. There are still some statements that are a bit anti-migrationist.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Very interesting many thanks, I'll have a look at those links!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      DaveyUK

                      I'm new to the site and just catching up on Mr. History's question regarding genetic links between the Basques and the Irish. So apologies for the late response, but I hope you read this, for what it's worth. I'm just re-reading Dr Bryan Sykes' The Seven Daughters of Eve, which through mitochondrial DNA testing tracked back everyone in Europe to seven female originators - six of which indicated ancient European roots, with only a seventh corresponding to the Neolithic migration into Europe associated with the discovery of farming.
                      He said the mitochondrial tests for Basques showed they were just like all other Europeans, with the exception of the one corresponding to the later migration. In other words, the Basques, with a non-Indo-European language, are the survivors of the original hunter gatherers, and were the last to adopt agriculture.
                      Elsewhere, my understanding is that there are other populations, in Ireland and in Wales, for example, which show they are related to original hunter gatherers, and not the later influx from the Middle East. They go back around 20,000 years, apparently.
                      But as you've already read, later research is showing a Celtic origin in northern Spain, spreading up the Atlantic coast as far as Ireland - and out into central Europe; a complete reversal of previous thinking.
                      The short answer is, Mr. History, that most Europeans go back a long way, and share a genetic heritage.
                      My haplotype is I, and I'm told by Family Tree that this goes back 23,000 years and puts my ancestors among the first people in Europe. It must have been cold, as it was in the middle of an ice age.
                      My question is, for anyone out there: Were the Picts of Northern Britain Celtic or pre-Celtic originals?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DaveyUK View Post
                        I'm new to the site and just catching up on Mr. History's question regarding genetic links between the Basques and the Irish. So apologies for the late response, but I hope you read this, for what it's worth. I'm just re-reading Dr Bryan Sykes' The Seven Daughters of Eve, which through mitochondrial DNA testing tracked back everyone in Europe to seven female originators - six of which indicated ancient European roots, with only a seventh corresponding to the Neolithic migration into Europe associated with the discovery of farming.
                        He said the mitochondrial tests for Basques showed they were just like all other Europeans, with the exception of the one corresponding to the later migration. In other words, the Basques, with a non-Indo-European language, are the survivors of the original hunter gatherers, and were the last to adopt agriculture.
                        Elsewhere, my understanding is that there are other populations, in Ireland and in Wales, for example, which show they are related to original hunter gatherers, and not the later influx from the Middle East. They go back around 20,000 years, apparently.
                        But as you've already read, later research is showing a Celtic origin in northern Spain, spreading up the Atlantic coast as far as Ireland - and out into central Europe; a complete reversal of previous thinking.
                        The short answer is, Mr. History, that most Europeans go back a long way, and share a genetic heritage.
                        My haplotype is I, and I'm told by Family Tree that this goes back 23,000 years and puts my ancestors among the first people in Europe. It must have been cold, as it was in the middle of an ice age.
                        My question is, for anyone out there: Were the Picts of Northern Britain Celtic or pre-Celtic originals?
                        The most recent studies of the British Isles show that there was a big change in the DNA of the people in the Bronze Age. These Bronze Age people originated in the Eurasian steppe and spread into western Europe, taking the Indo-European language with them, then into the British Isles carrying their DNA with them. The Celtic languages are Indo-European languages. The people that had been there prior to that were more closely related to Neolithic farmers. The modern Basques are more closely related to Neolithic farmers although they also have some Bronze Age DNA which would have caused them to have the Y-DNA marker of DF27 at a high frequency.

                        In order for you to get caught up with current studies you should read the studies listed below and read the book Blood of the Celts: The New Ancestral Story by Jean Manco. She mentions the Picts, Proto-Celtic and the development of Celtic.

                        Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic
                        genome
                        http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full

                        Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons
                        http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/16...omms10326.html

                        Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans
                        http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html

                        Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe
                        http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14317.html

                        Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture16152.html

                        Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14507.html

                        Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegeans
                        http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/11/25/032763

                        Ancient genomes link early farmers from Atapuerca in Spain to modern-day Basques
                        http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917.full
                        Last edited by Armando; 25 January 2016, 11:57 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          And into the ethnic Irish came the Viking blood, too. Keenan Ivory Wayans was on Finding Your Roots on PBS, and his yDNA leads right back to Southern Asia. But he doesn't look Asian. Through the centuries, many other people mixed it up, and if he hadn't done his ancestry on there, he would have assumed his daddy's daddy's daddy's etc, originated in Africa. Sure didn't! (Well, ultimately they did a very long time ago, migrated to Asia, mutated that yDNA, migrated to Indonesia and then to Madagascar, then slavery brought his family to American shores) Love that show. Fascinating!

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