Blood of the Celts

[Armando]

It is but isn't DF27 older than L21 and 20% of Irish R1b are P312* which could turn out to be DF27? Did L21 originate in Ireland? What about the autosomal dna?

Where do you get the stat that 20% of Irish R1b are P312*?

The Ireland Y-DNA project has 2621 people that have been identified as P312. Only 181 of those are P312 without a subclade defined. That's only 6.91%. Of those 181 there 130 that haven't even tested L21 and since there are 2229/2621 that are L21 then at least 85% should be L21. So only 19 of them could be DF27 but in actuality it would be even less because of U152 and DF19.

If we compare only the ones that tested L21, U152, DF19, and DF27 then we get the following.

Clade N %
DF19 12 0.49%
DF27 100 4.11%
U152 95 3.90%
L21 2229 91.50%
Total 2436 100.00%

So DF27 in Ireland is only about 4% of P312 but could be a few percent higher. If we were to consider all R1b in Ireland then DF27 would be an even lower percentage.

[Armando]

I think that France is the most likely place of origin for L21 but a lot of down stream branches look like they have an Irish origin.

At least you are acknowledging that it was on the continent and not Iberia.

I still don't get the Yamnaya to Iberia through Italy origin for BB because of the lack of ANE and U152 in Iberia.

Iberia isn't lacking in either one of those.

Lazaridis et al. Extended Data Table 3 shows Spanish to be 0.091-0.151 ANE and Orcadian to be 0.140-0.179. So that proves that ANE is not lacking in Iberians.

Valverde et al. has Iberia with 5% U152 with some regions as high as 8.57% and Martinez-Cruz et al. has several regions in Iberia with 5% U152. So that also proves that Iberia is not lacking in U152.

The problem with the P312 subclades and their movement into Iberia is that we don't know precisely when it happened or how many U152 were in the group of DF27.

[Earl Davis]

If 20% of Irish R1b are DF27 then why hasn't testing revealed it? Even if 20% of Irish R1bs were DF27 it would still mean that the remaining 80% were not. What about the autosomal DNA? Do you have any evidence that the Irish and Iberians are closely related in terms of their autosomal DNA?

I think that over 25% of the Irish may be DF27+. The reason its not be proven yet is that most studies only tested them for more recent subclades of DF27 that were well known in Iberia.

Earl.

Edit - I am trying to find a study I read recently on this. I can't remember if the figure was around 25% of the sample or 25% of P312 within the sample.

Earl.

[Armando]

I think that over 25% of the Irish may be DF27+. The reason its not be proven yet is that most studies only tested them for more recent subclades of DF27 that were well known in Iberia.

Earl.

Where are those 25% Irish that tested positive for P312 but negative for L21 that should be DF27?

[Earl Davis]

Where are those 25% Irish that tested positive for P312 but negative for L21 that should be DF27?

The study I read broke it down by subclade and included U152, U106, L21, some Z196 subclades and others. If you added the Z196 subclades to the P312* group the number was pretty high. Of course the P312* figure would include more than just Z196- people. I am trying to search for the study now in case my memory is off.

Earl.

[Earl Davis]

I must apologise to the forums for posting a figure without a citation. I have been looking for the study in question for the last half hour without success. If I find it in the coming days I will post a link. Failing that please regard my figure as suspect.

[Subwoofer]

I must apologise to the forums for posting a figure without a citation. I have been looking for the study in question for the last half hour without success. If I find it in the coming days I will post a link. Failing that please regard my figure as suspect.

It does seem a little unlikely, Jim Wilson reported a maximum of 8% P312* in his Cromo2 map data for Ireland. He didn't test all the branches of P312 but DF27 could only be a subset of this. I don't know how many samples Jim used for his maps but he only included folk who's grandparents came from the relevant areas.

[1798]

At least you are acknowledging that it was on the continent and not Iberia.


Iberia isn't lacking in either one of those.

Lazaridis et al. Extended Data Table 3 shows Spanish to be 0.091-0.151 ANE and Orcadian to be 0.140-0.179. So that proves that ANE is not lacking in Iberians.

Valverde et al. has Iberia with 5% U152 with some regions as high as 8.57% and Martinez-Cruz et al. has several regions in Iberia with 5% U152. So that also proves that Iberia is not lacking in U152.

The problem with the P312 subclades and their movement into Iberia is that we don't know precisely when it happened or how many U152 were in the group of DF27.

I remember someone posting the results of a study and that is where I got the 20% Irish P312*. I remember it because I was surprised.

Stones are not people and finding Stelae from Iberia to the Steppe is not evidence that R1b came from the Steppe.

Females have ANE also so tying ANE to YDNA is problematic.

[Armando]

It does seem a little unlikely, Jim Wilson reported a maximum of 8% P312* in his Cromo2 map data for Ireland. He didn't test all the branches of P312 but DF27 could only be a subset of this. I don't know how many samples Jim used for his maps but he only included folk who's grandparents came from the relevant areas.

8% P312* is still higher than the 100 DF27 out of 2,436 P312 (that have a subclade tested) in the Ireland Y-DNA project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

In a Chromo2 spreadsheet from Feb 2014 with 2,000 anonymized individuals that were tested for all 14498 Y SNPs on the Chromo2 chip there are only 21 individuals whose terminal subclade is S116/P312. That's only 1.05% of all Y-SNPs. Some of the DF27 downstream SNPs such as Z220/S356 were tested and are part of 119 individuals that are considered part of the S116/P312 haplogroup and 64 are considered to be terminal for S250/DF27. 1403/2000 are R1b which is 70.15% so I know this is a British Isles spreadsheet.

21 individuals terminal for S116/P312 out of 1403 R1b is still just 1.49%. If we consider that the 1403 is for all of the British Isles then I can see just the Irish coming close to 8% P312* but no where near 20% or even 25%.

[kevinduffy]

I remember someone posting the results of a study and that is where I got the 20% Irish P312*. I remember it because I was surprised.

Stones are not people and finding Stelae from Iberia to the Steppe is not evidence that R1b came from the Steppe.

Females have ANE also so tying ANE to YDNA is problematic.

The Yamnaya were R1b and came from the east. No has tried to tie ANE to YDNA. In fact, as far as I am aware, the only one who is constantly bringing up ANE is you.

[1798]

The Yamnaya were R1b and came from the east. No has tried to tie ANE to YDNA. In fact, as far as I am aware, the only one who is constantly bringing up ANE is you.

The Yamnaya were R1b Z2103. We are all R1b L51 here in western Europe.

[Subwoofer]

The Yamnaya were R1b Z2103. We are all R1b L51 here in western Europe.

Who were 'cough' chockablock full of ANE, unlike 'cough' early European farmers : )

[kevinduffy]

The Yamnaya were R1b Z2103. We are all R1b L51 here in western Europe.

If Z2103 came from the east then L51 likely also came from the east.

[1798]

Who were 'cough' chockablock full of ANE, unlike 'cough' early European farmers : )

CWC R1a

[Subwoofer]

CWC R1a

You keep repeating this, maybe you could explain why you think it forms an argument ?