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  • #31
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I think that you are descended from Saxons. Did your ancestors arrive from East Anglia with Cromwell's army?
    Since when is R-Z3000 Saxon?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      The TMRCA for the group that I belong to at yfull is 4,900 ybp. Some experts claim that yfull's estimates are 20% wrong. The estimate for my group should then be 5,880 which is Neolithic in western Europe.
      5880 or 4083 if you consider that a "20% error" means an error of +/- 20%

      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      They could have but where are the branches of my group that survived in Asia? I don't see them.

      The subgroup that I belong to is found mostly in Ireland and Scotland.
      How many people have been confirmed as U106>Z381>Z156>S5520>S5556, how many belong to further subclades and are they all confirmed as being from Ireland or Scotland? No one from England?

      The U106 group has established further subclades downstream of S5520, have you found which subgroup you belong to beyond S5556?

      https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      Each subclade has it own origin and that should be the goal of every tester.
      Possibly. Have you taken the Big Y test yet?

      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      S5520 is found mostly in Ireland and Scotland.
      Please provide evidence.

      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      Estimated age according to yfull should be 4,900 minus 144.41 as it is one SNP downstream of Z156. The SNP S5520 was found in my Chromo2 test.
      Incorrect. That reasoning does not appear to apply. Please refer to the file I have attached to this post, obtained from: http://yfull.com/tree/R-S264/ You will notice there are subclades that do not adhere to your reasoning.

      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      Yfull shows an average of 144.41 years per SNP plus 60 for the average age of the Big Y testers. If you click on info beside your terminal SNP at yfull you will see this.
      Where does it state this? yfull gives you an estimated date range for the formation of the subclade and an estimated date range for the time to the most recent common ancestor (see attached).

      Originally posted by kevinduffy View Post
      It probably arrived in Scotland and Ireland within the last 1500 years and was likely brought by the Anglo-Saxos, Vikings and/or Normans. I would not be surprised if it was brought to Ireland during the Ulster Plantation of the 1600s. Is it more common in Ulster than in other parts of Ireland?
      Legitimate question...but I doubt 1798 would know if his subclade is more common in Ulster than in other parts of Ireland, due to the lack of confirmed S5520 testers in Ireland and Northern Ireland.

      Depending on the level of analysis the Ireland DNA Project may be able to offer further results, but we will only know once those results are revealed.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by N21163; 30 September 2015, 12:18 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by N21163 View Post
        5880 or 4083 if you consider that a "20% error" means an error of +/- 20%



        How many people have been confirmed as U106>Z381>Z156>S5520>S5556, how many belong to further subclades and are they all confirmed as being from Ireland or Scotland? No one from England?

        The U106 group has established further subclades downstream of S5520, have you found which subgroup you belong to beyond S5556?

        https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults



        Possibly. Have you taken the Big Y test yet?



        Please provide evidence.



        Incorrect. That reasoning does not appear to apply. Please refer to the file I have attached to this post, obtained from: http://yfull.com/tree/R-S264/ You will notice there are subclades that do not adhere to your reasoning.



        Where does it state this? yfull gives you an estimated date range for the formation of the subclade and an estimated date range for the time to the most recent common ancestor (see attached).



        Legitimate question...but I doubt 1798 would know if his subclade is more common in Ulster than in other parts of Ireland, due to the lack of confirmed S5520 testers in Ireland and Northern Ireland.

        Depending on the level of analysis the Ireland DNA Project may be able to offer further results, but we will only know once those results are revealed.
        Dr Iain McDonald has produced a pdf document for U106 so you could read it.

        Would a number of English testers make a difference to the place of origin?

        R-S264 Z156/S264 * Z8160formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp.Click on info. Here below is a Big Y sample.
        39.0 7213307 39.0/7213307*8467165 45.78 45.78*144.41+60 6671


        I have not taken the Big Y test yet so I don't know which subgroup under S5556 I belong to but the two other S5556 testers are a GD of 39 @ 111 markers. Do you understand what that means?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by PDHOTLEN View Post
          Gee, I don't know anymore. But suffice it to say, I don't have the brains to come up with an idea like that, ha ha. Pushing it a bit further, though, if they moved into NW Europe during the Neolithic, then they (R-L664) did not arrive on horseback. They would've been engaged in "slash and burn" agriculture, most likely.
          O.K., well, it looks like I have to revise my thinking a bit, regarding my R1a-L664

          http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml
          Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 30 September 2015, 06:25 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
            Dr Iain McDonald has produced a pdf document for U106 so you could read it.
            You keep citing Iain and his work, yet use different subclade dating than he's given in the pdf file you note above. It's as if you want it to sound like your sources are impeccable by citing them, yet you use someone else's subclade ages. It's better known as "name-dropping." (This is leaving aside that Iain is a strong advocate of the theory that the Yamnaya are the ancestors of modern European R1b men, an idea you despise.)

            Iain is good, with a doctorate in statistics, which is why he was just added as a co-administrator of the R1b-U106 Project. His work has been invaluable to the project and its members.

            So, let's see what he gives as his age estimate for your subclade. Looking at the subclade ages he posted to our Yahoogroup on Sept. 4, he estimates the age of S5520 as 4,218 ybp, with a range of 4,956-3,551 ybp. His estimate for its subclade, S5556, is 3,895 ybp, with a range of 4,876-2,997 ybp.

            Not exactly the numbers you keep telling us using your SNP-counting mania.

            His work on dating of U106 and its subclades is based on analysis of the Big Y results of over 450 project members. I think his database for U106 NGS tests is significantly larger than that of YFull. Many more project members have had their BAM file analyzed by FGC than YFull, since the founders of FGC are U106+ and the project recommends FGC over YFull, just out of loyalty to our haplogroup.
            Last edited by MMaddi; 30 September 2015, 11:33 AM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
              You keep citing Iain and his work, yet use different subclade dating than he's given in the pdf file you note above. It's as if you want it to sound like your sources are impeccable by citing them, yet you use someone else's subclade ages. It's better known as "name-dropping." (This is leaving aside that Iain is a strong advocate of the theory that the Yamnaya are the ancestors of modern European R1b men, an idea you despise.)

              Iain is good, with a doctorate in statistics, which is why he was just added as a co-administrator of the R1b-U106 Project. His work has been invaluable to the project and its members.

              So, let's see what he gives as his age estimate for your subclade. Looking at the subclade ages he posted to our Yahoogroup on Sept. 4, he estimates the age of S5520 as 4,218 ybp, with a range of 4,956-3,551 ybp. His estimate for its subclade, S5556, is 3,895 ybp, with a range of 4,876-2,997 ybp.

              Not exactly the numbers you keep telling us using your SNP-counting mania.

              His work on dating of U106 and its subclades is based on analysis of the Big Y results of over 450 project members. I think his database for U106 NGS tests is significantly larger than that of YFull. Many more project members have had their BAM file analyzed by FGC than YFull, since the founders of FGC are U106+ and the project recommends FGC over YFull, just out of loyalty to our haplogroup.
              I used yfull's dates. In the info page on Z156 there are 13 testers with a total of 460 SNPs.
              460 divided by 13 = 35.3846153846 x 144.41 + 60 = 5,169.89230769 ybp.

              "This is leaving aside that Iain is a strong advocate of the theory that the Yamnaya are the ancestors of modern European R1b men," an idea I disagree with.

              I have asked the question on numerous occasions and still no answer. Which R1b subclades lived through the "Neolithic Revolution"? One cannot ignore this and brush it under the carpet. You just cannot start with the origin of all modern R1b with the Bronze Age. Let us start at the beginning. What are you afraid of?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                I used yfull's dates. In the info page on Z156 there are 13 testers with a total of 460 SNPs.
                460 divided by 13 = 35.3846153846 x 144.41 + 60 = 5,169.89230769 ybp.
                More SNP-counting mania. An analogy I've used before is Dustin Hoffman in the movie "Rain Man" and his uncanny ability to get an exact count of matchsticks strewn on the floor in his head in seconds. Very impressive, but not very enlightening.

                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                "This is leaving aside that Iain is a strong advocate of the theory that the Yamnaya are the ancestors of modern European R1b men," an idea I disagree with.
                Which I duly noted. That was my point. You cite Iain's work, as if it backs up your views, but neglect to mention that you violently disagree with him on an issue of great importance to you. That seems like you're trying to have it both ways - make it seem that you have credible sources for your views, but this source is at odds with your views.

                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                I have asked the question on numerous occasions and still no answer. Which R1b subclades lived through the "Neolithic Revolution"? One cannot ignore this and brush it under the carpet. You just cannot start with the origin of all modern R1b with the Bronze Age. Let us start at the beginning. What are you afraid of?
                Well, I would think that would be something upstream from M269, but not too far upstream. I base that on the Neolithic extending from about 10,000 years ago to about 5,000 or 6,000 years ago. Given the age estimates for M269, we're probably dealing with subclades upstream of M269 for the early Neolithic and M269 coming about in the mid to late Neolithic.

                However, the important question is where it was located at that early stage. I must point out (again!) that no M269 or any subclade immediately upstream from it has been found in European remains before about 5,000 years ago. So, this tells me, until other evidence is presented, that M269 was probably outside Europe or was a very minor haplogroup among European men before about 5,000 years ago.

                That's the best answer I can give you. I don't have the certainty that you seem to have about haplogroups in Europe several thousands of years ago, since I look for evidence. You don't seem to require much evidence to hold your views. You did post that in one case that it's your "intuition" that tells you about where haplogroups were thousands of years ago.
                Last edited by MMaddi; 30 September 2015, 02:26 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                  I have asked the question on numerous occasions and still no answer. Which R1b subclades lived through the "Neolithic Revolution"? One cannot ignore this and brush it under the carpet. You just cannot start with the origin of all modern R1b with the Bronze Age. Let us start at the beginning. What are you afraid of?
                  Maybe M343? I don't think anyone is arguing that R1b began in the Bronze Age. What they are saying is that R1b was not in Western Europe before the Bronze Age. Obviously it existed somewhere else. Most likely Asia or the Middle East.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    Dr Iain McDonald has produced a pdf document for U106 so you could read it.

                    Would a number of English testers make a difference to the place of origin?
                    An interesting question. It may establish a connection between Irish testers and English family lines and could demonstrate that Irish testers belong to a migration from Plantation families or from another point in history.

                    It could point to an unknown Irish migration to parts of England, though without some kind of further archaeological evidence I would not think this was likely.

                    I know that you will not even consider the first option posted so there is little point in discussing it further. I am intrigued that you do not consider this a possibility since you have stated that your ancestors came from "the northern part of the island".

                    I'm curious, when you mention your ancestors were from the "northern part of the island" were you referring to counties in Ulster? Or counties in the border regions of Leinster or Connact?

                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    R-S264 Z156/S264 * Z8160formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp.Click on info. Here below is a Big Y sample.
                    39.0 7213307 39.0/7213307*8467165 45.78 45.78*144.41+60 6671

                    I have not taken the Big Y test yet so I don't know which subgroup under S5556 I belong to
                    Exactly my point.

                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    but the two other S5556 testers are a GD of 39 @ 111 markers. Do you understand what that means?
                    Doesn't mean much really, and I thought by now you would realise this.

                    If the GD was 6 markers I would say that it would be far more likely that you belonged to the same subclade as the two testers you mention. You could find you share one subclade lower than S5556 with these testers but I would not be surprised if you both split off into separate subclades after this. Ultimately a GD of 39 in 111 markers cannot accurately demonstrate that you belong to the same subclade.

                    I know at this point in time the Big Y test is still quite expensive, but to determine which subclade you belong to you will sooner or later need to bite the bullet and pay for the test.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by N21163 View Post
                      An interesting question. It may establish a connection between Irish testers and English family lines and could demonstrate that Irish testers belong to a migration from Plantation families or from another point in history.

                      It could point to an unknown Irish migration to parts of England, though without some kind of further archaeological evidence I would not think this was likely.

                      I know that you will not even consider the first option posted so there is little point in discussing it further. I am intrigued that you do not consider this a possibility since you have stated that your ancestors came from "the northern part of the island".

                      I'm curious, when you mention your ancestors were from the "northern part of the island" were you referring to counties in Ulster? Or counties in the border regions of Leinster or Connact?



                      Exactly my point.



                      Doesn't mean much really, and I thought by now you would realise this.

                      If the GD was 6 markers I would say that it would be far more likely that you belonged to the same subclade as the two testers you mention. You could find you share one subclade lower than S5556 with these testers but I would not be surprised if you both split off into separate subclades after this. Ultimately a GD of 39 in 111 markers cannot accurately demonstrate that you belong to the same subclade.

                      I know at this point in time the Big Y test is still quite expensive, but to determine which subclade you belong to you will sooner or later need to bite the bullet and pay for the test.
                      Your knowledge of Irish history is limited. The plantation of Ulster was not the only one in Ireland but it was planted mainly by Scottish Celts from the Strathclyde region, not by people from the south east of England.


                      I know that I don't belong to the same subclades of S5556 as the two other testers because they have positive SNPs from the Chromo 2 that I am negative for. I know that two testers who have a GD of 39 at 111 markers are not related within the last 4000 years.

                      Why do you think that people who are in the same clan should have a 4000 years difference between them? Some people are trying to tie Z2103 and L51 together to make them fit into the Yamnaya theory because they are brother haplogroups. And yet you say that I must be a recent fellow traveler of someone who I not related to within the last 4000 years.


                      I will take the Big Y when it suits my pocket.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                        More SNP-counting mania. An analogy I've used before is Dustin Hoffman in the movie "Rain Man" and his uncanny ability to get an exact count of matchsticks strewn on the floor in his head in seconds. Very impressive, but not very enlightening.



                        Which I duly noted. That was my point. You cite Iain's work, as if it backs up your views, but neglect to mention that you violently disagree with him on an issue of great importance to you. That seems like you're trying to have it both ways - make it seem that you have credible sources for your views, but this source is at odds with your views.



                        Well, I would think that would be something upstream from M269, but not too far upstream. I base that on the Neolithic extending from about 10,000 years ago to about 5,000 or 6,000 years ago. Given the age estimates for M269, we're probably dealing with subclades upstream of M269 for the early Neolithic and M269 coming about in the mid to late Neolithic.

                        However, the important question is where it was located at that early stage. I must point out (again!) that no M269 or any subclade immediately upstream from it has been found in European remains before about 5,000 years ago. So, this tells me, until other evidence is presented, that M269 was probably outside Europe or was a very minor haplogroup among European men before about 5,000 years ago.

                        That's the best answer I can give you. I don't have the certainty that you seem to have about haplogroups in Europe several thousands of years ago, since I look for evidence. You don't seem to require much evidence to hold your views. You did post that in one case that it's your "intuition" that tells you about where haplogroups were thousands of years ago.
                        M269 was born before the European Neolithic and he only lived once. There are 17 SNPs at the L51 and L11 level which suggests a single line of descent. So 17 multiplied by 144.41 = 2,454.97 which does not look like a Neolithic family owing to the large spread of the Neolithic cultures.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                          M269 was born before the European Neolithic and he only lived once.
                          But he was probably not born in Europe and never lived there either.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                            M269 was born before the European Neolithic and he only lived once. There are 17 SNPs at the L51 and L11 level which suggests a single line of descent. So 17 multiplied by 144.41 = 2,454.97 which does not look like a Neolithic family owing to the large spread of the Neolithic cultures.
                            Sorry, but I don't accept your SNP-counting mania. I can't think of any credible source for your age estimate. Give me one credible genetic genealogist or population geneticist who believes that it's possible that M269 is 10,000 or more years old.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                              Sorry, but I don't accept your SNP-counting mania. I can't think of any credible source for your age estimate. Give me one credible genetic genealogist or population geneticist who believes that it's possible that M269 is 10,000 or more years old.
                              So www.yfull.com is not a credible source. Is that what you are saying?

                              Our main focus should be P311 and then our own personal y lines.

                              I started this thread about the CWC to show that ANE does not belong to R1b.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                                I started this thread about the CWC to show that ANE does not belong to R1b.
                                Who was claiming that it did?

                                Comment

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