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  • Corded Ware

    Corded Ware Germany M622615 ,10104, 2,473 BC R1a
    Population *
    ANE 25.62%
    ASE 1.26%
    WHG-UHG 60.41%
    East_Eurasian - * *
    West_African - * *
    East_African - * *
    ENF 12.71%


    # Population Percent
    1 North_Sea 27.26
    2 Atlantic 24.03
    3 Eastern_Euro 20.11
    4 Baltic 15.17
    5 West_Asian 12.98

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran + West_Scottish @ 9.080097

    R1b does not own the ANE dna as was claimed by some posters.

  • #2
    Tomenable posted a map of ANE in the thread "Genome of a late Neolithic Iberian farmer, post #631. You will notice how low the autosomal ANE is in Iberia so this more evidence against a link with the Yamnaya and BB in Iberia. Here are the results for one of the Yamnaya M951285.

    Population
    ANE 35.26%
    ASE 4.10%
    WHG-UHG 53.76%
    East_Eurasian -
    West_African 0.31%
    East_African -
    ENF 6.57%

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      Tomenable posted a map of ANE in the thread "Genome of a late Neolithic Iberian farmer, post #631. You will notice how low the autosomal ANE is in Iberia so this more evidence against a link with the Yamnaya and BB in Iberia. Here are the results for one of the Yamnaya M951285.

      Population
      ANE 35.26%
      ASE 4.10%
      WHG-UHG 53.76%
      East_Eurasian -
      West_African 0.31%
      East_African -
      ENF 6.57%
      Isn't it possible that the descendants of the Yamnaya mixed with other populations before reaching Iberia? This mixing could have resulted in the dilution of ANE.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 1798 View Post
        Tomenable posted a map of ANE in the thread "Genome of a late Neolithic Iberian farmer, post #631. You will notice how low the autosomal ANE is in Iberia so this more evidence against a link with the Yamnaya and BB in Iberia. Here are the results for one of the Yamnaya M951285.

        Population
        ANE 35.26%
        ASE 4.10%
        WHG-UHG 53.76%
        East_Eurasian -
        West_African 0.31%
        East_African -
        ENF 6.57%
        Kit Num: M951285
        Threshold of components set to 1.000
        Threshold of method set to 0.25%
        Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
        Gedmatch.Com

        Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

        This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
        Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
        Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
        Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

        Admix Results (sorted):

        # Population Percent
        1 Eastern_Euro 33.52
        2 North_Sea 28.14
        3 West_Asian 14.93
        4 Baltic 11.27
        5 Atlantic 4.42
        6 South_Asian 4.06
        7 Amerindian 3.66


        Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
        15 components mode.

        --------------------------------

        Least-squares method.

        Using 1 population approximation:
        1 East_Finnish @ 24.834776
        2 Erzya @ 25.058487
        3 Kargopol_Russian @ 25.148296
        4 Tatar @ 25.234802
        5 Chuvash @ 26.352684
        6 Finnish @ 27.374195
        7 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 28.312778
        8 Southwest_Russian @ 28.592119
        9 Ukrainian @ 28.638380
        10 Moldavian @ 29.044847
        11 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 29.277569
        12 Southwest_Finnish @ 29.379454
        13 South_Polish @ 29.459166
        14 Estonian @ 29.986629
        15 Polish @ 30.175816
        16 North_Swedish @ 30.400347
        17 Hungarian @ 30.570871
        18 Croatian @ 31.112778
        19 Russian_Smolensk @ 31.155388
        20 East_German @ 31.512407

        Using 2 populations approximation:
        1 50% East_Finnish +50% Tabassaran @ 20.148645


        Using 3 populations approximation:
        1 50% Chuvash +25% Tabassaran +25% West_Norwegian @ 16.584866


        Using 4 populations approximation:
        1 Chuvash + Erzya + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.525211
        2 Chuvash + Chuvash + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 16.584866
        3 Chuvash + Erzya + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 16.619112
        4 Chuvash + Chuvash + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.664843
        5 Chuvash + Chuvash + Norwegian + Tabassaran @ 16.729088
        6 Chuvash + Erzya + Norwegian + Tabassaran @ 16.742262
        7 Chuvash + Chuvash + Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.760130
        8 Erzya + Mari + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 16.828409
        9 Erzya + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.857485
        10 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.873384
        11 Chuvash + Erzya + Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.883747
        12 Erzya + Mari + Norwegian + Tabassaran @ 16.980738
        13 Chuvash + East_Finnish + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.991219
        14 Erzya + Mari + Swedish + Tabassaran @ 17.099211
        15 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 17.109724
        16 Kargopol_Russian + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 17.180006
        17 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Norwegian + Tabassaran @ 17.189167
        18 Erzya + MA-1 + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 17.222752
        19 Chuvash + East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Tabassaran @ 17.255564
        20 Erzya + MA-1 + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 17.266594

        Done.

        Elapsed time 20.2035 seconds.

        If western European R1bs are descended from the Yamnaya then they must have mixed with the pre-existing western European populations so that their autosomal profile became less eastern European.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kevinduffy View Post
          Kit Num: M951285
          Threshold of components set to 1.000
          Threshold of method set to 0.25%
          Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
          Gedmatch.Com

          Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

          This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
          Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
          Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
          Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

          Admix Results (sorted):

          # Population Percent
          1 Eastern_Euro 33.52
          2 North_Sea 28.14
          3 West_Asian 14.93
          4 Baltic 11.27
          5 Atlantic 4.42
          6 South_Asian 4.06
          7 Amerindian 3.66


          Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
          15 components mode.

          --------------------------------

          Least-squares method.

          Using 1 population approximation:
          1 East_Finnish @ 24.834776
          2 Erzya @ 25.058487
          3 Kargopol_Russian @ 25.148296
          4 Tatar @ 25.234802
          5 Chuvash @ 26.352684
          6 Finnish @ 27.374195
          7 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 28.312778
          8 Southwest_Russian @ 28.592119
          9 Ukrainian @ 28.638380
          10 Moldavian @ 29.044847
          11 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 29.277569
          12 Southwest_Finnish @ 29.379454
          13 South_Polish @ 29.459166
          14 Estonian @ 29.986629
          15 Polish @ 30.175816
          16 North_Swedish @ 30.400347
          17 Hungarian @ 30.570871
          18 Croatian @ 31.112778
          19 Russian_Smolensk @ 31.155388
          20 East_German @ 31.512407

          Using 2 populations approximation:
          1 50% East_Finnish +50% Tabassaran @ 20.148645


          Using 3 populations approximation:
          1 50% Chuvash +25% Tabassaran +25% West_Norwegian @ 16.584866


          Using 4 populations approximation:
          1 Chuvash + Erzya + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.525211
          2 Chuvash + Chuvash + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 16.584866
          3 Chuvash + Erzya + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 16.619112
          4 Chuvash + Chuvash + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.664843
          5 Chuvash + Chuvash + Norwegian + Tabassaran @ 16.729088
          6 Chuvash + Erzya + Norwegian + Tabassaran @ 16.742262
          7 Chuvash + Chuvash + Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.760130
          8 Erzya + Mari + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 16.828409
          9 Erzya + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.857485
          10 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.873384
          11 Chuvash + Erzya + Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.883747
          12 Erzya + Mari + Norwegian + Tabassaran @ 16.980738
          13 Chuvash + East_Finnish + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 16.991219
          14 Erzya + Mari + Swedish + Tabassaran @ 17.099211
          15 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 17.109724
          16 Kargopol_Russian + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 17.180006
          17 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Norwegian + Tabassaran @ 17.189167
          18 Erzya + MA-1 + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian @ 17.222752
          19 Chuvash + East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Tabassaran @ 17.255564
          20 Erzya + MA-1 + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 17.266594

          Done.

          Elapsed time 20.2035 seconds.

          If western European R1bs are descended from the Yamnaya then they must have mixed with the pre-existing western European populations so that their autosomal profile became less eastern European.
          They aren't. That is the reality. R1b was already in western Europe and adopted the IE. The first farmers brought the IE from the Middle East. This is the way it is, IE from the Middle East, Celtic from the west.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
            They aren't. That is the reality. R1b was already in western Europe and adopted the IE. The first farmers brought the IE from the Middle East. This is the way it is, IE from the Middle East, Celtic from the west.
            Of course the small caveat is this is your personal opinion and far from a majority view.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
              Of course the small caveat is this is your personal opinion and far from a majority view.
              If the Yamnaya brought R1b to Iberia, why did they leave their ANE behind them. The CWC are a majority R1a it seems and look at the ANE that they have.

              The Yamnaya got their IE languages from the same place that western Europeans got theirs, the Middle East and if some of them moved west during the BA and mixed with the CWC then so what is the big deal? West Europeans already had it.

              It also makes sense that Celtic spread from west to east not east to west.

              R1b could not have avoided the Neolithic revolution so which Neolithic cultures did R1b belong to and which subclades?

              The farmers who arrived in western Europe 8,000 ybp were not an aggressive group because there is evidence of them living side by side with the HGs for 2,000 years. They did not force the issue.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                If the Yamnaya brought R1b to Iberia, why did they leave their ANE behind them. The CWC are a majority R1a it seems and look at the ANE that they have.

                The Yamnaya got their IE languages from the same place that western Europeans got theirs, the Middle East and if some of them moved west during the BA and mixed with the CWC then so what is the big deal? West Europeans already had it.

                It also makes sense that Celtic spread from west to east not east to west.

                R1b could not have avoided the Neolithic revolution so which Neolithic cultures did R1b belong to and which subclades?

                The farmers who arrived in western Europe 8,000 ybp were not an aggressive group because there is evidence of them living side by side with the HGs for 2,000 years. They did not force the issue.
                Why do you think your last point (for which there is plenty of evidence to the contrary) is relevant ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                  They aren't. That is the reality. R1b was already in western Europe and adopted the IE. The first farmers brought the IE from the Middle East. This is the way it is, IE from the Middle East, Celtic from the west.
                  Can you site any sources that back up your claims?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    If the Yamnaya brought R1b to Iberia, why did they leave their ANE behind them. The CWC are a majority R1a it seems and look at the ANE that they have.

                    The Yamnaya got their IE languages from the same place that western Europeans got theirs, the Middle East and if some of them moved west during the BA and mixed with the CWC then so what is the big deal? West Europeans already had it.

                    It also makes sense that Celtic spread from west to east not east to west.

                    R1b could not have avoided the Neolithic revolution so which Neolithic cultures did R1b belong to and which subclades?

                    The farmers who arrived in western Europe 8,000 ybp were not an aggressive group because there is evidence of them living side by side with the HGs for 2,000 years. They did not force the issue.
                    The Yamnaya and their descendants likely mixed with the populations that they encountered as they moved westward which would have had the effect of altering their DNA profiles.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                      Why do you think your last point (for which there is plenty of evidence to the contrary) is relevant ?

                      Why would it take 2000 years to persuade the WHGs to take up farming?

                      Why did you not answer the question about R1b and the Neolithic?

                      P312 and U106 look like Neolithic expansions not BA.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kevinduffy View Post
                        The Yamnaya and their descendants likely mixed with the populations that they encountered as they moved westward which would have had the effect of altering their DNA profiles.
                        I have compared my dna results to the Yamnaya at gedmatch and I don't see the link.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                          Why would it take 2000 years to persuade the WHGs to take up farming?

                          Why did you not answer the question about R1b and the Neolithic?

                          P312 and U106 look like Neolithic expansions not BA.
                          Possibly because we've been over it before ?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                            I have compared my dna results to the Yamnaya at gedmatch and I don't see the link.
                            That is because the Yamnaya sample at Gedmatch was from a time before the Yamnaya and their descendants started moving westward and mating with the local populations that they encountered. No one is arguing that modern western European R1bs are only descended from the Yamnaya. Western European R1bs are likely descended from the Yamnaya and the other populations that they encountered as they moved westward through Europe.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                              Why would it take 2000 years to persuade the WHGs to take up farming?

                              Why did you not answer the question about R1b and the Neolithic?

                              P312 and U106 look like Neolithic expansions not BA.
                              Maybe the WHGs prefered hunting and gathering to farming? They may have seen hunting and gathering as part of their culture and were reluctant to abandon the ways of their ancestors. What evidence is there that P312 and U106 were Neolithic expansions?

                              Comment

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