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  • #16
    Originally posted by GST View Post
    Quoting some text from the Eurogenes ANE K7 blog page:




    With multiple waves of migration that we don't yet and may never fully understand, K7 is not a very precise indicator of the survival of western European hunter-gatherers.

    mtDNA haplogroup U5 is typically thought of as a European hunter-gatherer haplotype, but much of the U5 in Europe today is derived from eastern European U5 that migrated to western Europe from the east during the Bronze and Iron ages, in what Jean Manco calls the "revenge of the hunter-gatherers". There is no doubt that higher fractions of western European hunter-gatherers survived in the periphery of northwestern Europe, but their average contribution based on mtDNA is quite low. So you need to reconcile the uncertainty in K7 results with the fact that we see mostly farmer and steppe migration mtDNA in Europe today.
    So you are stating that U5 which originated in the Iberian refuge went east after the LGM and came back in the BA. How can that be proved? Anyways, WHG is autosomal dna.

    The 8000 ybp ancient remains from Lochsbour was used as a proxy for WHG and I compared my result to It.
    Lochsbour K15
    Population
    North_Sea 34.51%
    Atlantic 23.86%
    Baltic 33.51%
    Eastern_Euro 7.33%

    Lochsbour K7
    Population
    ANE 7.35%
    ASE 0.49%
    WHG-UHG 88.70%
    East_Eurasian 3.09%
    West_African -
    East_African 0.36%

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      So you are stating that U5 which originated in the Iberian refuge went east after the LGM and came back in the BA. How can that be proved? Anyways, WHG is autosomal dna.

      The 8000 ybp ancient remains from Lochsbour was used as a proxy for WHG and I compared my result to It.
      Lochsbour K15
      Population
      North_Sea 34.51%
      Atlantic 23.86%
      Baltic 33.51%
      Eastern_Euro 7.33%

      Lochsbour K7
      Population
      ANE 7.35%
      ASE 0.49%
      WHG-UHG 88.70%
      East_Eurasian 3.09%
      West_African -
      East_African 0.36%
      Clearly you didn't read any of what GST stated.

      Why are you talking about autosomal DNA when he was discussing mtDNA?

      WHG, has been discussed at length with you in the past.

      Is this another attempt for you to rehash the same cyclic arguments?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by N21163 View Post
        Clearly you didn't read any of what GST stated.

        Why are you talking about autosomal DNA when he was discussing mtDNA?

        WHG, has been discussed at length with you in the past.

        Is this another attempt for you to rehash the same cyclic arguments?
        This is my thread and I was referring to the autosomal dna of the HG people in the Isles. Why people still think that the autosomal dna of a region can be wiped out or replaced beats me, after all that has been written by genetic scientists.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          This is my thread and I was referring to the autosomal dna of the HG people in the Isles.
          Sounds like you're throwing a tantrum.

          I saw what you were referring to, and it had nothing to do with what GST said.

          Anyway, HG classifications have previously been discussed at length, why bring it up again and again and again??

          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          Why people still think that the autosomal dna of a region can be wiped out or replaced beats me, after all that has been written by genetic scientists.
          I don't believe anyone was talking about 'wipe-out' theories.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by N21163 View Post
            Sounds like you're throwing a tantrum.

            I saw what you were referring to, and it had nothing to do with what GST said.

            Anyway, HG classifications have previously been discussed at length, why bring it up again and again and again??



            I don't believe anyone was talking about 'wipe-out' theories.
            It is important to let people know the truth.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              It is important to let people know the truth.
              ...that you post gedmatch percentages in an attempt to support rehashed cyclic arguments and logical fallacies.

              That is clear.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by N21163 View Post
                ...that you post gedmatch percentages in an attempt to support rehashed cyclic arguments and logical fallacies.

                That is clear.
                The Eurogenes K15 calculator is accurate enough for me.I have learned all I need to know about my ancient dna lines from it.

                Comment


                • #23
                  These results for the NA Clovis seems like the calculators are good enough and what one would expect.

                  NA Clovis F999919 12,500ybp K15
                  # Population Percent
                  1 Amerindian 88.51
                  2 Siberian 4.58
                  3 Eastern_Euro 3.52
                  4 Southeast_Asian 1.63
                  5 North_Sea 0.95
                  6 Oceanian 0.34
                  7 Northeast_African 0.26
                  8 Atlantic 0.14
                  9 Baltic 0.08

                  Clovis K7
                  Population *
                  ANE 34.01%
                  ASE 3.52%
                  WHG-UHG 5.15%
                  East_Eurasian 55.30%
                  West_African 0.08%
                  East_African 1.95%
                  ENF - * *

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    The Eurogenes K15 calculator is accurate enough for me.
                    This has also been discussed ad nauseum.

                    The calculators may fit for some people, based on what they know about their ancestry.

                    The calculators do not work in every instance.

                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    I have learned all I need to know about my ancient dna lines from it.
                    And no room for any other possibilities or developments. Congratulations.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The 8000 year old Lochsbour is the oldest West European remains tested to date. We need more tests from 10,000,20,000 and 30,000 ybp to compare with modern western European populations.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by N21163 View Post
                        This has also been discussed ad nauseum.

                        The calculators may fit for some people, based on what they know about their ancestry.

                        The calculators do not work in every instance
                        .



                        And no room for any other possibilities or developments. Congratulations.
                        The K15 oracles must be autosomal dna from the very distant past. The 2000 ybp Hinxton 4 had links to the German population. Irish + Irish + Irish + North_German @ 4.858814
                        I think that the NS and Atlantic proportions from the K15 are accurate enough and goes back 8000 years to Lochsbour.
                        Last edited by 1798; 2 September 2015, 06:58 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Native Americans are said to have used fire to clear woodlands also-- interesting

                          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                          There was a documentary about the first Britons on the TV last night. The Mesolithic people used fire to clear woodland which makes sense and they did it long before the first farmers arrived. Cutting trees with a stone axe would not be the cleverest method. I think that the program showed that the dna of the Mesolithic people still lives on in the modern Britons.
                          The book 1491 by Charles Mann details how the Native Americans used fire on a yearly (?) basis to clear out woodlands. Neat, and makes sense, to understand Mesolithic Britons did the same. I remember as a kid puzzling over slash and burn agriculture in the Americas being believed to be a pre-contact practice, since metal axes came after Columbus, but I was not smart enough to figure out that slash and burn agriculture came AFTER Columbus, and the Native Americans had used a different method before then. (Always assuming I remember the book 1491 correctly, which might be a problematic assumption.)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            About woodlands cleared by fire

                            An alternative hypothesis.

                            They moved to the areas cleared by natural forest fires (i.e. caused by lightning strikes). And possibly only enlarged them using fire.

                            When comparing them to us we say that they were primitive, but they were not stupid. Control and containment of forest fires is challenging even in the 21st century.

                            Mr. W

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MerryB View Post
                              The book 1491 by Charles Mann details how the Native Americans used fire on a yearly (?) basis to clear out woodlands. Neat, and makes sense, to understand Mesolithic Britons did the same. I remember as a kid puzzling over slash and burn agriculture in the Americas being believed to be a pre-contact practice, since metal axes came after Columbus, but I was not smart enough to figure out that slash and burn agriculture came AFTER Columbus, and the Native Americans had used a different method before then. (Always assuming I remember the book 1491 correctly, which might be a problematic assumption.)
                              Our Mesolithic ancestors were clever and the animals that would have lived on the new vegetation would have been easily caught.The first farmers must have used controlled burning also.

                              Our M269 and L11 ancestors must have lived in the forest as the bottlenecks suggest. We must have lived like the isolated tribes in the Amazon and elsewhere. The deforestation during the Neolithic may have forced them out from the woods.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: About woodlands cleared by fire

                                The forests in Europe are not what they used to be thousands of years ago.

                                To understand forest fires in the temperate climate one should visit NW US.

                                Possibly this long weekend there will be fires to watch.

                                The forest fire aftermath is acutely visible all year round, as long as there is no snow cover. It is not a jungle...

                                Thousands years ago, each year, natural fires would surely clear more land than any non-farmers could adapt/use.

                                Farmers might had been the first ones to use fire to clear more land, but only if they had axes capable of preparing the containment area...

                                Mr. W

                                Comment

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