Eurogenes Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Admixture Proportions

[MMaddi]

I See, so farmers then. As I say, a fine distinction to make.

Read up on the range wars between farmers and ranchers in the western U.S. in the late 19th century. They certainly made a fine distinction between the different lifestyles and the different interest of each group. The word "war" is literal - shooting and killing took place over who would control the land and for what type of economic activity.

This was probably something similar to what happened in Europe during the Bronze Age when herders came from the east and seemed to replace the farming population. At least that's what population geneticists are coming up with in recent studies.

[Jomid59]

Herding is considered the next stage beyond agriculture. Besides growing crops, herders/pastoralists realized that they could feed those crops to pigs, goats and cows and have a reliable source of meat.

I See, so farmers then. As I say, a fine distinction to make.

"Recreational activities are often done for enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure and are considered to be "fun"."

[1798]

Ah, I see. So science and logic have no place here. Is this why you prefer to post in this forum?

I am all for science and logic and there is a lot of it missing from all the dna forums that I look at. Stuff like, one man rode into western Europe 4000 ybp on a white horse from the Steppe and replaced the whole male population.

[MMaddi]

This is the recreation room.

Ah, I see. So science and logic have no place here. Is this why you prefer to post in this forum?

[MMaddi]

I am not sure how they make the distinction, is not herding really a form of gathering?

Hunter-gatherers gathered berries and other wild edible plants. They didn't engage in organized agriculture. That form of human existence came with the Neolithic period, which began in the Middle East.

Herding is considered the next stage beyond agriculture. Besides growing crops, herders/pastoralists realized that they could feed those crops to pigs, goats and cows and have a reliable source of meat.

Hunter-gatherers and herders/pastoralists are two entirely different ways for humans to organize their societies and get food.

[1798]

You got 30.57% Mediterranean Farmer and your wife got 31.27%. That's a hefty chunk of DNA from southern Europe/the Middle East, especially for two people from Ireland, in the northwest corner of Europe.

Do you still insist that your ancestry is eternally Irish and we don't have to account for migrations from outside Europe for Europeans in general, not just for you and your wife? If so, why do you continually post these results from various admixture calculators, without any comment at all, when they clash with what you keep telling us about there being no significant migration into Europe in the ancient past that has influenced modern European DNA? Is this just merely some sort of parlor game on your part, or do you actually have a point to posting these results in numerous threads?

If you believe so strongly that your DNA, as an Irishman, and European DNA in general hasn't been influenced by past migrations (including from outside Europe), please explain to us how you and your wife can account for almost 1/3 Mediterranean Farmer DNA.

We are all immigrants on this island.I posted my results so that other people could compare theirs with mine.

I would expect to have Mediterranean dna since that is the route that my ancient ancestors took on their way to western Europe.

This is the recreation room.

[Jomid59]

Middle Eastern Herder 16.32%
East African Pastoralist 0.86%

Do you happen to be a shepherd?

That would be a fantastic coincidence.

I am not sure how they make the distinction, is not herding really a form of gathering?

[gatty]

Baltic Hunter Gatherer 57.82%
Mediterranean Farmer 31.57%
Anatolian Farmer 7.55%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 1.31%
South American Hunter Gatherer 1.07%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer 0.44%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.24%

[MMaddi]

For comparison sake, here are my results for this calculator:

Population
Anatolian Farmer 25.57%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 19.35%
Middle Eastern Herder 16.32%
East Asian Farmer -
South American Hunter Gatherer -
South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer -
East African Pastoralist 0.86%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.21%
Mediterranean Farmer 37.32%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer 0.37%
Bantu Farmer -

My ancestry is entirely Sicilian/southern Italian. Comparing my results to those of 1798 and his wife, of full Irish ancestry, should be informative.

Notice that my Mediterranean Farmer is 37.32%, not that much higher than 1798/his wife. So, this is telling us that Mediterranean DNA is widely diffused among all Europeans, with my Southern European DNA only having a slightly higher percentage than those of two people with full Irish ancestry.

The major differences between my results and those of 1798/his wife are seen in Anatolian Farmer, where my percentage is 25.57%, compared to 7.80% (1798) and 5.50% (his wife). Yet, both of them match Anatolian Farmer DNA at more than 5%. The other major difference is that my Baltic Hunter Gatherer is just 19.35%, compared to 58.43% (1798) and 60.46% (his wife). Obviously, I have a lot less DNA similar to ancient northern European hunter-gatherers, while the DNA of 1798/his wife is very similar to that of ancient northern European hunter-gatherers. That's not very surprising, since their ancestry is entirely northern European, while mine is entirely southern European, at least as far as ancestry in the last several hundred years and probably beyond that.

This tells me that, while these calculators can easily tell the difference between northern and southern Europeans, they also show that northern Europeans have significant ancient admixture from migrations from southern Europe and even a bit directly from the Middle East.

[MMaddi]

Mine
Population * *
Anatolian Farmer 7.80%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 58.43%
Middle Eastern Herder - * *
East Asian Farmer - * *
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.36%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 2.78%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer - * *
East African Pastoralist 0.07%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer - * *
Mediterranean Farmer 30.57%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - * *
Bantu Farmer - * *

My Wife
Population * *
Anatolian Farmer 5.50%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 60.46%
Middle Eastern Herder - * *
East Asian Farmer - * *
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.18%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 1.91%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.57%
East African Pastoralist - * *
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.11%
Mediterranean Farmer 31.27%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - * *
Bantu Farmer - * *


My Son
Population * *
Anatolian Farmer 5.97%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 58.46%
Middle Eastern Herder - * *
East Asian Farmer - * *
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.55%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 3.91%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer - * *
East African Pastoralist - * *
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.14%
Mediterranean Farmer 30.97%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - * *
Bantu Farmer - * *

You got 30.57% Mediterranean Farmer and your wife got 31.27%. That's a hefty chunk of DNA from southern Europe/the Middle East, especially for two people from Ireland, in the northwest corner of Europe.

Do you still insist that your ancestry is eternally Irish and we don't have to account for migrations from outside Europe for Europeans in general, not just for you and your wife? If so, why do you continually post these results from various admixture calculators, without any comment at all, when they clash with what you keep telling us about there being no significant migration into Europe in the ancient past that has influenced modern European DNA? Is this just merely some sort of parlor game on your part, or do you actually have a point to posting these results in numerous threads?

If you believe so strongly that your DNA, as an Irishman, and European DNA in general hasn't been influenced by past migrations (including from outside Europe), please explain to us how you and your wife can account for almost 1/3 Mediterranean Farmer DNA.

[Jomid59]

Not exactly sure what it means

Maybe the OP will enlighten us.

I do know that I enjoy hunting and am a rubbish gardener.
farming seems a bit boring.

[NCroots]

Mine:

Anatolian Farmer 10.45%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 55.08%
Middle Eastern Herder - **
East Asian Farmer - **
South American Hunter Gatherer - **
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 1.42%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer - **
East African Pastoralist - **
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer - **
Mediterranean Farmer 32.11%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - **
Bantu Farmer 0.95%

My wife:

Anatolian Farmer 8.53%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 53.94%
Middle Eastern Herder - **
East Asian Farmer - **
South American Hunter Gatherer - **
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.95%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 1.26%
East African Pastoralist - **
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer - **
Mediterranean Farmer 35.32%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - **
Bantu Farmer - **

Our son:

Anatolian Farmer 9.32%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 53.05%
Middle Eastern Herder - **
East Asian Farmer - **
South American Hunter Gatherer - **
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 2.14%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.14%
East African Pastoralist - **
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer - **
Mediterranean Farmer 34.98%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - **
Bantu Farmer 0.37%



Not exactly sure what it means

[Jomid59]

Anatolian Farmer 9.87%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 55.07%
Middle Eastern Herder 0.42%
East Asian Farmer -
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.25%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.51%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.53%
East African Pastoralist -
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.44%
Mediterranean Farmer 32.58%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
Bantu Farmer 0.29%

[1798]

Mine
Population * *
Anatolian Farmer 7.80%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 58.43%
Middle Eastern Herder - * *
East Asian Farmer - * *
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.36%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 2.78%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer - * *
East African Pastoralist 0.07%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer - * *
Mediterranean Farmer 30.57%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - * *
Bantu Farmer - * *

My Wife
Population * *
Anatolian Farmer 5.50%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 60.46%
Middle Eastern Herder - * *
East Asian Farmer - * *
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.18%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 1.91%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 0.57%
East African Pastoralist - * *
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.11%
Mediterranean Farmer 31.27%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - * *
Bantu Farmer - * *


My Son
Population * *
Anatolian Farmer 5.97%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 58.46%
Middle Eastern Herder - * *
East Asian Farmer - * *
South American Hunter Gatherer 0.55%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 3.91%
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer - * *
East African Pastoralist - * *
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.14%
Mediterranean Farmer 30.97%
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - * *
Bantu Farmer - * *