Cro-Magnon

[N21163]

So you,a scientist,feel it necessary to come on this forum and refute what I have written. If I am totally wrong then you don't need to answer any of my posts.

I feel it necessary to come on these forums as I am an ftdna customer. I refute what you have written because at times you post misinformation, knowingly or otherwise. This is a problem? I am not the only one who has refuted your posts.

Can anyone's statements on SNP origins be backed up by research? I had my first Y test nine years ago and I was M269 positive. The scientists then didn't know the origin place of M269 and today they still don't know.

Since you have admitted this, why do you persist in rehashing certain discussions over and over and over again, when there has been no further developments?

I think that my autosomal dna results represents the Irish gene pool since the last Ice-Age.

Possibly, on the assumption that there has been no genetic influence from outside Ireland in the last 10,000 years. You admitted yourself you got DNA tested because you hit a brick wall with your genealogy. At this time there is nothing conclusive to say that all of your ancestors have been in Ireland for the last 10,000 years. This is currently fact.

There was no wipe out and no total replacement at any time in the last 10,000 years.

Why does it have to be all or nothing? A combination of factors can contribute to population replacement. More research is needed and this has previously been discussed at length.
In time, there results of ancient DNA remains in Ireland may be published and this may shed some further light on the matter. For now scientists in Ireland seem to be focused on ancient DNA of cows and pigs.

So it is not wrong of me to write that I have autosomal dna from the Cro Magnon or "early Europeans" and that it would certainly be HG type.

For the sake of your own rebuttal and nothing else you really need to read other posts thoroughly. It is quite possible that many present day Europeans have a genetic connection with early Europeans, but to claim WHG is solely the DNA of Early Europeans is the part that is wrong.

Two interesting comments from another forum.
"We know now that the WHG autosomal component or at least something very similar to the WHG component was present among at least some of the early Neolithic farmers from Anatolia since the Barcin sample scores around 20% WHG in the Eurogenes West Eurasia K8 test"

Yes I was reading this post on anthrogenica from 'J Man'.
It highlights what I have been saying. It doesn't state the WHG component is solely Cro-Magnon so it doesn't really help your argument.

Subsequent posts discuss the need for more ancient DNA to be analysed...funnily enough:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4829-WHG-Component-in-Neolithic-Anatolia

"A WHG signal which is basically the signal of the Gravettian wave is not at all surprising in parts of Anatolia. If you want to take it back even further then it is important to recall that the Gravettians of Europe are thought to be descended from the Ahmarian hunters of the Levant and the coast of Anatolia."

Once again, reference who you are quoting and what forum.
On an important note, if you are going to quote the opinion of 'alan' on anthrogenica, or any other source for that matter, then you do not paraphrase it:

"The Fikirtepe first Neolithic culture of NW Anatolia shows a classic case of farmers from central Anatolia combining with hunters (of the Agach type culture) in NW Anatolia in places. Archaeology makes it 100pc clear they were interacting. Incidentally the NW Anatolian hunters are thought to relate to the Epi-Gravettian type roots and were similar to the hunters up the west Black Sea shore as far as Crimea. So a WHG signal - which IMO is basically the signal of the Gravettian wave - is not at all surprising in parts of Anatolia. If you want to take it back even further then it is important to recall that the Gravettians of Europe are thought to be descended from the Ahmarian hunters of the Levant and the coast of Anatolia."

This also doesn't state that the WHG component is exclusively Cro-Magnon or that Cro-Magnon is only comprised of the WHG component.

[1798]

I feel it necessary to come on these forums as I am an ftdna customer. I refute what you have written because at times you post misinformation, knowingly or otherwise. This is a problem? I am not the only one who has refuted your posts.



Since you have admitted this, why do you persist in rehashing certain discussions over and over and over again, when there has been no further developments?



Possibly, on the assumption that there has been no genetic influence from outside Ireland in the last 10,000 years. You admitted yourself you got DNA tested because you hit a brick wall with your genealogy. At this time there is nothing conclusive to say that all of your ancestors have been in Ireland for the last 10,000 years. This is currently fact.



Why does it have to be all or nothing? A combination of factors can contribute to population replacement. More research is needed and this has previously been discussed at length.
In time, there results of ancient DNA remains in Ireland may be published and this may shed some further light on the matter. For now scientists in Ireland seem to be focused on ancient DNA of cows and pigs.



For the sake of your own rebuttal and nothing else you really need to read other posts thoroughly. It is quite possible that many present day Europeans have a genetic connection with early Europeans, but to claim WHG is solely the DNA of Early Europeans is the part that is wrong.



Yes I was reading this post on anthrogenica from 'J Man'.
It highlights what I have been saying. It doesn't state the WHG component is solely Cro-Magnon so it doesn't really help your argument.

Subsequent posts discuss the need for more ancient DNA to be analysed...funnily enough:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4829-WHG-Component-in-Neolithic-Anatolia

Once again, reference who you are quoting and what forum.
On an important note, if you are going to quote the opinion of 'alan' on anthrogenica, or any other source for that matter, then you do not paraphrase it:

"The Fikirtepe first Neolithic culture of NW Anatolia shows a classic case of farmers from central Anatolia combining with hunters (of the Agach type culture) in NW Anatolia in places. Archaeology makes it 100pc clear they were interacting. Incidentally the NW Anatolian hunters are thought to relate to the Epi-Gravettian type roots and were similar to the hunters up the west Black Sea shore as far as Crimea. So a WHG signal - which IMO is basically the signal of the Gravettian wave - is not at all surprising in parts of Anatolia. If you want to take it back even further then it is important to recall that the Gravettians of Europe are thought to be descended from the Ahmarian hunters of the Levant and the coast of Anatolia."

This also doesn't state that the WHG component is exclusively Cro-Magnon or that Cro-Magnon is only comprised of the WHG component.

The Irish gene pool is a mixture of all the migrants who arrived in Ireland from the LGM. I don't remember stating that all of my ancestors were from the very first migration 10,000 ybp. There were multiple migrations to Ireland from France.

WHG is Western European Hunter Gatherer dna. Are you suggesting that it originated elsewhere?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravettian

"The Gravettian toolmaking culture was a specific archaeological industry of the European Upper Paleolithic era prevalent before the last glacial epoch. It is named after the site of La Gravette in the Dordogne region of France where its characteristic tools were first found and studied. The earliest signs of the culture were found at Kozarnika, Bulgaria. One of the earliest artifacts is found in eastern Crimea (Buran-Kaya) (see Crimean Mountains) dated 32,000 years ago. It lasted until 22,000 years ago. Where found, it succeeded the artifacts datable to the Aurignacian culture."

[N21163]

The Irish gene pool is a mixture of all the migrants who arrived in Ireland from the LGM.

No doubt and from more recent migrations/invasions from other areas as well.

I don't remember stating that all of my ancestors were from the very first migration 10,000 ybp.

If read my post I didn't actually state that you did say this.

There were multiple migrations to Ireland from France.

Migrations from France, migrations and invasions from other areas in Europe, migrations and invasions from different parts of Britain.

WHG is Western European Hunter Gatherer dna. Are you suggesting that it originated elsewhere?

You're going around in circles again
The WHG component has been discussed at length.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravettian
"The Gravettian toolmaking culture was a specific archaeological industry of the European Upper Paleolithic era prevalent before the last glacial epoch. It is named after the site of La Gravette in the Dordogne region of France where its characteristic tools were first found and studied. The earliest signs of the culture were found at Kozarnika, Bulgaria. One of the earliest artifacts is found in eastern Crimea (Buran-Kaya) (see Crimean Mountains) dated 32,000 years ago. It lasted until 22,000 years ago. Where found, it succeeded the artifacts datable to the Aurignacian culture."

I have read this and other articles on Gravettian culture so I presume this for your benefit.

This cut and paste job from Wikipedia hasn't helped your case (once again)...

Curious, is this just something that you want to try and drag on as long as you can?

[1798]

No doubt and from more recent migrations/invasions from other areas as well.



If read my post I didn't actually state that you did say this.



Migrations from France, migrations and invasions from other areas in Europe, migrations and invasions from different parts of Britain.



You're going around in circles again
The WHG component has been discussed at length.



I have read this and other articles on Gravettian culture so I presume this for your benefit.

This cut and paste job from Wikipedia hasn't helped your case (once again)...

Curious, is this just something that you want to try and drag on as long as you can?

These minor migrations did not change the gene pool. They were all from western Europe originally.

The 64% WHG that I have from one calculator shows that I still have a lot of the Gravettian HG dna.

[N21163]

These minor migrations did not change the gene pool. They were all from western Europe originally.

There is of course absolutely no variants within western Europe...come on now.

The 64% WHG that I have from one calculator shows that I still have a lot of the Gravettian HG dna.

Bold statements, backed up with any research? No. Same old story.

To substantiate such a claim please provide evidence where there have been genetic comparisons between the 3 samples that the WHG component is based on (the Loschbour sample and two Mesolithic individuals from the La Brana Cave in Spain) and any samples from Gravettian or "Cro-Magnon" cultures. Such research would also need to state that Cro-Magnon DNA is comprised solely of WHG to support your earlier statements.

[hansonrf]

Think about how you phrase your topics of discussion, what outcome are you wanting to engage people with? Can your statements be backed up by research? Can you engage with others without resorting to logical fallacies: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ass...rHigherRes.jpg

I'm not smart enough to contribute but I have been watching this thread, trying to learn something, and you have provided this gem... A must-read for all Forum posters/users...

Thanks!

[1798]

There is of course absolutely no variants within western Europe...come on now.



Bold statements, backed up with any research? No. Same old story.

To substantiate such a claim please provide evidence where there have been genetic comparisons between the 3 samples that the WHG component is based on (the Loschbour sample and two Mesolithic individuals from the La Brana Cave in Spain) and any samples from Gravettian or "Cro-Magnon" cultures. Such research would also need to state that Cro-Magnon DNA is comprised solely of WHG to support your earlier statements.

Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions
La Brana
Population
ANE 3.98%
ASE 0.45%
WHG-UHG 92.37%
East_Eurasian 2.31%
West_African 0.86%
East_African -
ENF -

Lochsbour
Population
ANE 7.35%
ASE 0.49%
WHG-UHG 88.70%
East_Eurasian 3.09%
West_African -
East_African 0.36%
ENF -

Comparing Kit F999918 (Loschbour, Lux., 8ky) and F999915 (La Brana, Spain, 7ky)
Largest segment = 3.8 cM
Total of segments > 1.5 cM = 185.3 cM

[N21163]

I'm not smart enough to contribute but I have been watching this thread, trying to learn something, and you have provided this gem... A must-read for all Forum posters/users...

Thanks!

I stumbled across it a few years ago. A handy poster to have up in the office

Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions
La Brana
Population
ANE 3.98%
ASE 0.45%
WHG-UHG 92.37%
East_Eurasian 2.31%
West_African 0.86%
East_African -
ENF -

Lochsbour
Population
ANE 7.35%
ASE 0.49%
WHG-UHG 88.70%
East_Eurasian 3.09%
West_African -
East_African 0.36%
ENF -

Comparing Kit F999918 (Loschbour, Lux., 8ky) and F999915 (La Brana, Spain, 7ky)
Largest segment = 3.8 cM
Total of segments > 1.5 cM = 185.3 cM

We have been through this before, the admixture calculator comparisons are not research.

Thank you for reaffirming my points about your cyclic arguments.

Like many other threads you have not advanced this one from your original post.

[1798]

I stumbled across it a few years ago. A handy poster to have up in the office



We have been through this before, the admixture calculator comparisons are not research.

Thank you for reaffirming my points about your cyclic arguments.

Like many other threads you have not advanced this one from your original post.

So when the calculators don't fit with your line of thinking we should not use them. The reality is that we are descended from the first AMH or we would not be writing on this forum. DNA replication is 99.9% accurate.

[N21163]

So when the calculators don't fit with your line of thinking we should not use them.

What?

Provide a reference when I have stated that the admixture calculators support my line of thinking over research.

You can't, as I have never stated such a thing.

The reality is that we are descended from the first AMH or we would not be writing on this forum. DNA replication is 99.9% accurate.

You are continuing to circle around the fact that you do not have any research to support your original statement.

[1798]

What?

Provide a reference when I have stated that the admixture calculators support my line of thinking over research.

You can't, as I have never stated such a thing.



You are continuing to circle around the fact that you do not have any research to support your original statement.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552

Abstract

"Analysis of ancient DNA can reveal historical events that are difficult to discern through study of present-day individuals. To investigate European population history around the time of the agricultural transition, we sequenced complete genomes from a ~7,500 year old early farmer from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture from Stuttgart in Germany and an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg. We also generated data from seven ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden. We compared these genomes and published ancient DNA to new data from 2,196 samples from 185 diverse populations to show that at least three ancestral groups contributed to present-day Europeans. The first are Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), who are more closely related to Upper Paleolithic Siberians than to any present-day population. The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners. The third are Early European Farmers (EEF), related to the Stuttgart individual, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored WHG-related ancestry. We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans."

[N21163]

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552
Abstract

"Analysis of ancient DNA can reveal historical events that are difficult to discern through study of present-day individuals. To investigate European population history around the time of the agricultural transition, we sequenced complete genomes from a ~7,500 year old early farmer from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture from Stuttgart in Germany and an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg. We also generated data from seven ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden. We compared these genomes and published ancient DNA to new data from 2,196 samples from 185 diverse populations to show that at least three ancestral groups contributed to present-day Europeans. The first are Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), who are more closely related to Upper Paleolithic Siberians than to any present-day population. The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners. The third are Early European Farmers (EEF), related to the Stuttgart individual, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored WHG-related ancestry. We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans."

The parts you bolded reflect the explanation of the WHG component I provided earlier in this thread: http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...08&postcount=5

Data from this study was used in the creation of the Eurogenes ANE_K7 calculator and that is outlined in the Eurogenes post:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three.html

You are attempting to use this article to support your claim but you have a cyclic argument.

Here is the full article:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/12/23/001552.full.pdf

There is no mention of Cro-Magnon, Cro-Magnon samples, Cro-Magnon DNA or the WHG component representing Cro-Magnon DNA.

There is also no mention of Gravettian or Ahmarian culture either.

This does not help your original statement from your first post on this thread.

[1798]

The parts you bolded reflect the explanation of the WHG component I provided earlier in this thread: http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...08&postcount=5

Data from this study was used in the creation of the Eurogenes ANE_K7 calculator and that is outlined in the Eurogenes post:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three.html

You are attempting to use this article to support your claim but you have a cyclic argument.

Here is the full article:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/12/23/001552.full.pdf

There is no mention of Cro-Magnon, Cro-Magnon samples, Cro-Magnon DNA or the WHG component representing Cro-Magnon DNA.

There is also no mention of Gravettian or Ahmarian culture either.

This does not help your original statement from your first post on this thread.

Lochsbour and La Brana are descended from the Gravettians. Was it not Lazaridis who linked WHG to the Gravettians?

[N21163]

Lochsbour and La Brana are descended from the Gravettians.

Are you now attempting to state that these two samples are direct descendants of the Gravettians, without any outside influence, and the WHG component is indicative of Cro-Magnons and Gravettians?

Based on what exactly?

Was it not Lazaridis who linked WHG to the Gravettians?

Please provide a reference (try a full reference too and not just an abstract )

[1798]

The parts you bolded reflect the explanation of the WHG component I provided earlier in this thread: http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...08&postcount=5

Data from this study was used in the creation of the Eurogenes ANE_K7 calculator and that is outlined in the Eurogenes post:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three.html

You are attempting to use this article to support your claim but you have a cyclic argument.

Here is the full article:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/12/23/001552.full.pdf

There is no mention of Cro-Magnon, Cro-Magnon samples, Cro-Magnon DNA or the WHG component representing Cro-Magnon DNA.

There is also no mention of Gravettian or Ahmarian culture either.

This does not help your original statement from your first post on this thread.

The ANE calculator is accurate then.