Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Cro-Magnon

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    There is of course absolutely no variants within western Europe...come on now.



    Bold statements, backed up with any research? No. Same old story.

    To substantiate such a claim please provide evidence where there have been genetic comparisons between the 3 samples that the WHG component is based on (the Loschbour sample and two Mesolithic individuals from the La Brana Cave in Spain) and any samples from Gravettian or "Cro-Magnon" cultures. Such research would also need to state that Cro-Magnon DNA is comprised solely of WHG to support your earlier statements.

    Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions
    La Brana
    Population
    ANE 3.98%
    ASE 0.45%
    WHG-UHG 92.37%
    East_Eurasian 2.31%
    West_African 0.86%
    East_African -
    ENF -

    Lochsbour
    Population
    ANE 7.35%
    ASE 0.49%
    WHG-UHG 88.70%
    East_Eurasian 3.09%
    West_African -
    East_African 0.36%
    ENF -

    Comparing Kit F999918 (Loschbour, Lux., 8ky) and F999915 (La Brana, Spain, 7ky)
    Largest segment = 3.8 cM
    Total of segments > 1.5 cM = 185.3 cM

    Leave a comment:


  • hansonrf
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    Think about how you phrase your topics of discussion, what outcome are you wanting to engage people with? Can your statements be backed up by research? Can you engage with others without resorting to logical fallacies: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ass...rHigherRes.jpg
    I'm not smart enough to contribute but I have been watching this thread, trying to learn something, and you have provided this gem... A must-read for all Forum posters/users...

    Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    These minor migrations did not change the gene pool. They were all from western Europe originally.
    There is of course absolutely no variants within western Europe...come on now.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    The 64% WHG that I have from one calculator shows that I still have a lot of the Gravettian HG dna.
    Bold statements, backed up with any research? No. Same old story.

    To substantiate such a claim please provide evidence where there have been genetic comparisons between the 3 samples that the WHG component is based on (the Loschbour sample and two Mesolithic individuals from the La Brana Cave in Spain) and any samples from Gravettian or "Cro-Magnon" cultures. Such research would also need to state that Cro-Magnon DNA is comprised solely of WHG to support your earlier statements.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    No doubt and from more recent migrations/invasions from other areas as well.



    If read my post I didn't actually state that you did say this.



    Migrations from France, migrations and invasions from other areas in Europe, migrations and invasions from different parts of Britain.



    You're going around in circles again
    The WHG component has been discussed at length.



    I have read this and other articles on Gravettian culture so I presume this for your benefit.

    This cut and paste job from Wikipedia hasn't helped your case (once again)...

    Curious, is this just something that you want to try and drag on as long as you can?
    These minor migrations did not change the gene pool. They were all from western Europe originally.

    The 64% WHG that I have from one calculator shows that I still have a lot of the Gravettian HG dna.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    The Irish gene pool is a mixture of all the migrants who arrived in Ireland from the LGM.
    No doubt and from more recent migrations/invasions from other areas as well.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I don't remember stating that all of my ancestors were from the very first migration 10,000 ybp.
    If read my post I didn't actually state that you did say this.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    There were multiple migrations to Ireland from France.
    Migrations from France, migrations and invasions from other areas in Europe, migrations and invasions from different parts of Britain.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    WHG is Western European Hunter Gatherer dna. Are you suggesting that it originated elsewhere?
    You're going around in circles again
    The WHG component has been discussed at length.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravettian
    "The Gravettian toolmaking culture was a specific archaeological industry of the European Upper Paleolithic era prevalent before the last glacial epoch. It is named after the site of La Gravette in the Dordogne region of France where its characteristic tools were first found and studied. The earliest signs of the culture were found at Kozarnika, Bulgaria. One of the earliest artifacts is found in eastern Crimea (Buran-Kaya) (see Crimean Mountains) dated 32,000 years ago. It lasted until 22,000 years ago. Where found, it succeeded the artifacts datable to the Aurignacian culture."
    I have read this and other articles on Gravettian culture so I presume this for your benefit.

    This cut and paste job from Wikipedia hasn't helped your case (once again)...

    Curious, is this just something that you want to try and drag on as long as you can?
    Last edited by N21163; 3 July 2015, 08:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    I feel it necessary to come on these forums as I am an ftdna customer. I refute what you have written because at times you post misinformation, knowingly or otherwise. This is a problem? I am not the only one who has refuted your posts.



    Since you have admitted this, why do you persist in rehashing certain discussions over and over and over again, when there has been no further developments?



    Possibly, on the assumption that there has been no genetic influence from outside Ireland in the last 10,000 years. You admitted yourself you got DNA tested because you hit a brick wall with your genealogy. At this time there is nothing conclusive to say that all of your ancestors have been in Ireland for the last 10,000 years. This is currently fact.



    Why does it have to be all or nothing? A combination of factors can contribute to population replacement. More research is needed and this has previously been discussed at length.
    In time, there results of ancient DNA remains in Ireland may be published and this may shed some further light on the matter. For now scientists in Ireland seem to be focused on ancient DNA of cows and pigs.



    For the sake of your own rebuttal and nothing else you really need to read other posts thoroughly. It is quite possible that many present day Europeans have a genetic connection with early Europeans, but to claim WHG is solely the DNA of Early Europeans is the part that is wrong.



    Yes I was reading this post on anthrogenica from 'J Man'.
    It highlights what I have been saying. It doesn't state the WHG component is solely Cro-Magnon so it doesn't really help your argument.

    Subsequent posts discuss the need for more ancient DNA to be analysed...funnily enough:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ithic-Anatolia



    Once again, reference who you are quoting and what forum.
    On an important note, if you are going to quote the opinion of 'alan' on anthrogenica, or any other source for that matter, then you do not paraphrase it:

    "The Fikirtepe first Neolithic culture of NW Anatolia shows a classic case of farmers from central Anatolia combining with hunters (of the Agach type culture) in NW Anatolia in places. Archaeology makes it 100pc clear they were interacting. Incidentally the NW Anatolian hunters are thought to relate to the Epi-Gravettian type roots and were similar to the hunters up the west Black Sea shore as far as Crimea. So a WHG signal - which IMO is basically the signal of the Gravettian wave - is not at all surprising in parts of Anatolia. If you want to take it back even further then it is important to recall that the Gravettians of Europe are thought to be descended from the Ahmarian hunters of the Levant and the coast of Anatolia."

    This also doesn't state that the WHG component is exclusively Cro-Magnon or that Cro-Magnon is only comprised of the WHG component.

    The Irish gene pool is a mixture of all the migrants who arrived in Ireland from the LGM. I don't remember stating that all of my ancestors were from the very first migration 10,000 ybp. There were multiple migrations to Ireland from France.

    WHG is Western European Hunter Gatherer dna. Are you suggesting that it originated elsewhere?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravettian
    "The Gravettian toolmaking culture was a specific archaeological industry of the European Upper Paleolithic era prevalent before the last glacial epoch. It is named after the site of La Gravette in the Dordogne region of France where its characteristic tools were first found and studied. The earliest signs of the culture were found at Kozarnika, Bulgaria. One of the earliest artifacts is found in eastern Crimea (Buran-Kaya) (see Crimean Mountains) dated 32,000 years ago. It lasted until 22,000 years ago. Where found, it succeeded the artifacts datable to the Aurignacian culture."

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    So you,a scientist,feel it necessary to come on this forum and refute what I have written. If I am totally wrong then you don't need to answer any of my posts.
    I feel it necessary to come on these forums as I am an ftdna customer. I refute what you have written because at times you post misinformation, knowingly or otherwise. This is a problem? I am not the only one who has refuted your posts.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    Can anyone's statements on SNP origins be backed up by research? I had my first Y test nine years ago and I was M269 positive. The scientists then didn't know the origin place of M269 and today they still don't know.
    Since you have admitted this, why do you persist in rehashing certain discussions over and over and over again, when there has been no further developments?

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I think that my autosomal dna results represents the Irish gene pool since the last Ice-Age.
    Possibly, on the assumption that there has been no genetic influence from outside Ireland in the last 10,000 years. You admitted yourself you got DNA tested because you hit a brick wall with your genealogy. At this time there is nothing conclusive to say that all of your ancestors have been in Ireland for the last 10,000 years. This is currently fact.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    There was no wipe out and no total replacement at any time in the last 10,000 years.
    Why does it have to be all or nothing? A combination of factors can contribute to population replacement. More research is needed and this has previously been discussed at length.
    In time, there results of ancient DNA remains in Ireland may be published and this may shed some further light on the matter. For now scientists in Ireland seem to be focused on ancient DNA of cows and pigs.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    So it is not wrong of me to write that I have autosomal dna from the Cro Magnon or "early Europeans" and that it would certainly be HG type.
    For the sake of your own rebuttal and nothing else you really need to read other posts thoroughly. It is quite possible that many present day Europeans have a genetic connection with early Europeans, but to claim WHG is solely the DNA of Early Europeans is the part that is wrong.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    Two interesting comments from another forum.
    "We know now that the WHG autosomal component or at least something very similar to the WHG component was present among at least some of the early Neolithic farmers from Anatolia since the Barcin sample scores around 20% WHG in the Eurogenes West Eurasia K8 test"
    Yes I was reading this post on anthrogenica from 'J Man'.
    It highlights what I have been saying. It doesn't state the WHG component is solely Cro-Magnon so it doesn't really help your argument.

    Subsequent posts discuss the need for more ancient DNA to be analysed...funnily enough:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ithic-Anatolia

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    "A WHG signal which is basically the signal of the Gravettian wave is not at all surprising in parts of Anatolia. If you want to take it back even further then it is important to recall that the Gravettians of Europe are thought to be descended from the Ahmarian hunters of the Levant and the coast of Anatolia."
    Once again, reference who you are quoting and what forum.
    On an important note, if you are going to quote the opinion of 'alan' on anthrogenica, or any other source for that matter, then you do not paraphrase it:

    "The Fikirtepe first Neolithic culture of NW Anatolia shows a classic case of farmers from central Anatolia combining with hunters (of the Agach type culture) in NW Anatolia in places. Archaeology makes it 100pc clear they were interacting. Incidentally the NW Anatolian hunters are thought to relate to the Epi-Gravettian type roots and were similar to the hunters up the west Black Sea shore as far as Crimea. So a WHG signal - which IMO is basically the signal of the Gravettian wave - is not at all surprising in parts of Anatolia. If you want to take it back even further then it is important to recall that the Gravettians of Europe are thought to be descended from the Ahmarian hunters of the Levant and the coast of Anatolia."

    This also doesn't state that the WHG component is exclusively Cro-Magnon or that Cro-Magnon is only comprised of the WHG component.
    Last edited by N21163; 2 July 2015, 03:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Two interesting comments from another forum.
    "We know now that the WHG autosomal component or at least something very similar to the WHG component was present among at least some of the early Neolithic farmers from Anatolia since the Barcin sample scores around 20% WHG in the Eurogenes West Eurasia K8 test"

    "A WHG signal which is basically the signal of the Gravettian wave is not at all surprising in parts of Anatolia. If you want to take it back even further then it is important to recall that the Gravettians of Europe are thought to be descended from the Ahmarian hunters of the Levant and the coast of Anatolia."

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    Since you have nothing further to add your only conclusion is that I don't understand you? You and I have engaged in discussions many times and I have highlighted your pattern of posting on several occasions. It follows a similar cycle most times. As a result I can understand your pattern of behaviour on these forums.

    Ultimately, I think you will find you are again mistaken and you have further demonstrated you have not understood a single word that I have said.

    I am a scientist. You are not. What of it? What does that have to do with any of our discussions.

    Focus on the task at hand. That's what my rebuttal has been about this entire post. I have outlined the method of approach for discussions and you choose to ignore it.

    That is your choice, and in making that choice you will perpetuate a cycle of discourse from either myself or others. You're the one who is choosing to be stubborn and at times ignorant.

    If you want people to understand where you are coming from you may wish to take a step back and comprehend what I have written. Think about how you phrase your topics of discussion, what outcome are you wanting to engage people with? Can your statements be backed up by research? Can you engage with others without resorting to logical fallacies: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ass...rHigherRes.jpg

    I have had experience discussing interpersonal relations and building rapport with others. I would discuss this further with you if you wished, but I get the feeling you may not be interested.
    So you,a scientist,feel it necessary to come on this forum and refute what I have written. If I am totally wrong then you don't need to answer any of my posts.

    Can anyone's statements on SNP origins be backed up by research? I had my first Y test nine years ago and I was M269 positive. The scientists then didn't know the origin place of M269 and today they still don't know.

    I think that my autosomal dna results represents the Irish gene pool since the last Ice-Age. There was no wipe out and no total replacement at any time in the last 10,000 years. So it is not wrong of me to write that I have autosomal dna from the Cro Magnon or "early Europeans" and that it would certainly be HG type.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    You don't understand me and you stated that you are a scientist.
    Since you have nothing further to add your only conclusion is that I don't understand you? You and I have engaged in discussions many times and I have highlighted your pattern of posting on several occasions. It follows a similar cycle most times. As a result I can understand your pattern of behaviour on these forums.

    Ultimately, I think you will find you are again mistaken and you have further demonstrated you have not understood a single word that I have said.

    I am a scientist. You are not. What of it? What does that have to do with any of our discussions.

    Focus on the task at hand. That's what my rebuttal has been about this entire post. I have outlined the method of approach for discussions and you choose to ignore it.

    That is your choice, and in making that choice you will perpetuate a cycle of discourse from either myself or others. You're the one who is choosing to be stubborn and at times ignorant.

    If you want people to understand where you are coming from you may wish to take a step back and comprehend what I have written. Think about how you phrase your topics of discussion, what outcome are you wanting to engage people with? Can your statements be backed up by research? Can you engage with others without resorting to logical fallacies: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ass...rHigherRes.jpg

    I have had experience discussing interpersonal relations and building rapport with others. I would discuss this further with you if you wished, but I get the feeling you may not be interested.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    How does that make any kind of sense? If I think you are wrong I will answer posts.



    Really? Is that what you seriously think?

    One doesn't have to be a logician to understand and apply the principles of logic, one doesn't have to be a mathematician to understand and use mathematics.
    There are processes in debate and discussion, I'm simply stating try and stick to them.

    I thought that would have been clear by now, obviously not.



    Perhaps you are struggling with the wording and that's where you are becoming confused. The components of the calculator, i.e. WHG and ANE are assembled using certain remains as reference populations. The admixture calculators have been discussed at length but it doesn't seem to get through.



    Yamnaya genetic influence in Europe is not a myth, now you're being silly.



    Is this your attempt to provoke some kind of reaction? Is it seriously all or nothing with you? What is wrong with the admixture calculators being a "best fit" based on reference populations? It's all a work in progress.



    Quite possibly you are, but not with the example you gave in your first post (which is the whole point of our discussion): http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...61&postcount=1
    You don't understand me and you stated that you are a scientist.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    If you think that I am wrong in any of my posts then you don't have to answer them.
    How does that make any kind of sense? If I think you are wrong I will answer posts.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    So one has to be an academic to be able to write here. Is that what you are saying?
    Really? Is that what you seriously think?

    One doesn't have to be a logician to understand and apply the principles of logic, one doesn't have to be a mathematician to understand and use mathematics.
    There are processes in debate and discussion, I'm simply stating try and stick to them.

    I thought that would have been clear by now, obviously not.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    You stated that WHG is an artificial construct and Haik's paper is based on ANE, another artificial construct.
    Perhaps you are struggling with the wording and that's where you are becoming confused. The components of the calculator, i.e. WHG and ANE are assembled using certain remains as reference populations. The admixture calculators have been discussed at length but it doesn't seem to get through.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    So the Yamnaya invasion is a myth.
    Yamnaya genetic influence in Europe is not a myth, now you're being silly.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    Gedmatch should be closed then seeing that the autosomal components are based on artificial constructs.
    Is this your attempt to provoke some kind of reaction? Is it seriously all or nothing with you? What is wrong with the admixture calculators being a "best fit" based on reference populations? It's all a work in progress.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I think that it is alright to say that I am descended from the Cro Magnon and I posted it.
    Quite possibly you are, but not with the example you gave in your first post (which is the whole point of our discussion): http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...61&postcount=1

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    Upset? If you believe that then you really do not understand how this works.

    Too often it seems as though you miss the point of others postings.

    Here is a rundown of how this thread has gone:

    You made an opening claim that the WHG component of the admixture calculators is "the DNA of the Cro-Magnon", a statement that has no basis in research.

    I refuted this statement, pointed out inconsistencies in your argument and backed up my statements with a link explaining how the WHG component was constructed.

    You then claimed I must have a personal agenda of some kind (an accusation that had no basis in my character, nor what I have stated or alluded to in previous posts).

    I refuted this statement and stated that you have an agenda on these forums. While I did not cite any examples my statements were based on your previous comments in forums threads.

    Rather than addressing my statements you attempted to deflect the discussion on to another tangent. I refuted this again. You made a feigned attempt to query the relevance of my statements. I explained my position further and you parroted my response by copying and pasting part of a Wikipedia article. I further clarified my position and you went on to make a vague statement about an ancient DNA sample from Siberia (assuming I knew nothing about the sample)....

    Now you are thinking that because I refuted your statements that I must be getting upset...hardly. This just demonstrates that you don't understand this process.

    As I have stated numerous times I have no emotional attachment with any statements nor do I have any agenda on these forums.

    Not that it is a requirement, but it seems that you don't keep track of our previous discussions. This isn't our first encounter, consistently I have requested evidence for your claims and have refuted your statements and claims when they have not been supported by any current research.

    In addition, it seems you simply do not know how to engage anyone in academic discussion or debate and have difficulties constructing, and maintaining, a logical argument. If you take this as a personal attack you will only further demonstrate that you do not understand this process.

    All in all your discussion has followed a similar pattern to other threads. It has essentially gone nowhere.

    Some of your topics could generate lively discussions, however I believe you may need to think things through a bit more before posting. If you are able to back your statements up with consistent logical argument and research and be prepared that your ideas may be refuted, postings like this will be avoided.

    Just a suggestion.
    If you think that I am wrong in any of my posts then you don't have to answer them. So one has to be an academic to be able to write here. Is that what you are saying?

    You stated that WHG is an artificial construct and Haik's paper is based on ANE, another artificial construct. So the Yamnaya invasion is a myth. Gedmatch should be closed then seeing that the autosomal components are based on artificial constructs.

    I think that it is alright to say that I am descended from the Cro Magnon and I posted it.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    You seem to get upset at any suggestion that we in western Europe have WHG autosomal dna from the Cro Magnons who lived in western Europe.

    We also have R YDNA and U MTdna dna from the Cro Magnon era as well. I thought you might want to know that.

    Motala 12 has shown that ANE was also found in all ancient Europeans.
    Upset? If you believe that then you really do not understand how this works.

    Too often it seems as though you miss the point of others postings.

    Here is a rundown of how this thread has gone:

    You made an opening claim that the WHG component of the admixture calculators is "the DNA of the Cro-Magnon", a statement that has no basis in research.

    I refuted this statement, pointed out inconsistencies in your argument and backed up my statements with a link explaining how the WHG component was constructed.

    You then claimed I must have a personal agenda of some kind (an accusation that had no basis in my character, nor what I have stated or alluded to in previous posts).

    I refuted this statement and stated that you have an agenda on these forums. While I did not cite any examples my statements were based on your previous comments in forums threads.

    Rather than addressing my statements you attempted to deflect the discussion on to another tangent. I refuted this again. You made a feigned attempt to query the relevance of my statements. I explained my position further and you parroted my response by copying and pasting part of a Wikipedia article. I further clarified my position and you went on to make a vague statement about an ancient DNA sample from Siberia (assuming I knew nothing about the sample)....

    Now you are thinking that because I refuted your statements that I must be getting upset...hardly. This just demonstrates that you don't understand this process.

    As I have stated numerous times I have no emotional attachment with any statements nor do I have any agenda on these forums.

    Not that it is a requirement, but it seems that you don't keep track of our previous discussions. This isn't our first encounter, consistently I have requested evidence for your claims and have refuted your statements and claims when they have not been supported by any current research.

    In addition, it seems you simply do not know how to engage anyone in academic discussion or debate and have difficulties constructing, and maintaining, a logical argument. If you take this as a personal attack you will only further demonstrate that you do not understand this process.

    All in all your discussion has followed a similar pattern to other threads. It has essentially gone nowhere.

    Some of your topics could generate lively discussions, however I believe you may need to think things through a bit more before posting. If you are able to back your statements up with consistent logical argument and research and be prepared that your ideas may be refuted, postings like this will be avoided.

    Just a suggestion.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    You seem to get upset at any suggestion that we in western Europe have WHG autosomal dna from the Cro Magnons who lived in western Europe.

    We also have R YDNA and U MTdna dna from the Cro Magnon era as well. I thought you might want to know that.

    Motala 12 has shown that ANE was also found in all ancient Europeans.[/QUOTE]

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X