Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Lost Tribe, M269

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I think that finding these R1b groups in these areas is proof of a west to east movement.
    Or conversely that L23 and a lot of it's siblings originated a lot further East than you would like, remember this paper also has the only known L23* that didn't need exhuming.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
      Or conversely that L23 and a lot of it's siblings originated a lot further East than you would like, remember this paper also has the only known L23* that didn't need exhuming.
      So if we find L11*,P312* and U106* in western Europe you are saying place of origin.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
        So if we find L11*,P312* and U106* in western Europe you are saying place of origin.
        Do you know of a West European area with high levels of M73, Z2105, U106 & U152 ?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
          Do you know of a West European area with high levels of M73, Z2105, U106 & U152 ?
          U106
          Netherlands
          Belgium
          Luxembourg

          U152
          Italy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
            U106
            Netherlands
            Belgium
            Luxembourg

            U152
            Italy
            So what you are saying is M73 and Z2105 did originate there

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
              So what you are saying is M73 and Z2105 did originate there
              You and I both don't know where M73 or M269 originated.Nor does anyone else. Look among the ancient European forests.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                You and I both don't know where M73 or M269 originated.Nor does anyone else. Look among the ancient European forests.
                Right, so your saying M73 originated in a European forest, is that West Europe or East Europe ?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                  Right, so your saying M73 originated in a European forest, is that West Europe or East Europe ?
                  It looks like M73 and M269 have two different histories.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    It looks like M73 and M269 have two different histories.
                    Or that your assertion that M269 must have been occurred in West Europe because that's where it's descendants are most common is a little simplistic ?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                      Or that your assertion that M269 must have been occurred in West Europe because that's where it's descendants are most common is a little simplistic ?
                      When you examine the R1b tree it looks like R1b expanded after M269. L23 has nine brothers and it will be interesting to see where all those branches fit in. There was another bottleneck after the initial L23 expansion at the L11 level There are six SNPs on that level and could be around 900-1000 years. So that will have to be looked into as well. If the two 4,600 ybp Kromsdorf R1b were P312 that means P312 and his ancestors were already in western Europe at that time.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                        When you examine the R1b tree it looks like R1b expanded after M269. L23 has nine brothers and it will be interesting to see where all those branches fit in. There was another bottleneck after the initial L23 expansion at the L11 level There are six SNPs on that level and could be around 900-1000 years. So that will have to be looked into as well. If the two 4,600 ybp Kromsdorf R1b were P312 that means P312 and his ancestors were already in western Europe at that time.
                        No arguments there though personally I'm beginning to think U106 and P312 could have originally appeared in the East European part of the Steppes and that these Ural mountain samples are a remnant of that (not the only explanation of course) but clearly for all practical purposes both P312 and U106 are West European.

                        Comment


                        • If the great M269+ migration from the steppe to central Europe happened in about 2500 BC, this would have been about 500 years after the appearance of U106 & maybe 200 years after the appearance of U152. There may have been a tiny trace left behind in the Urals or steppe. The way of testing this would be to do a Big Y on these & see if they are on the outer fringes of U106 or U152.

                          There could, of course, have been a west to east migration after these were already established in Europe. Typically, I look for a starburst pattern for a diaspora after a haplogroup gets established, which usually involves a small percentage moving back down the path from whence they came.

                          Timothy Peterman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                            If the great M269+ migration from the steppe to central Europe happened in about 2500 BC, this would have been about 500 years after the appearance of U106 & maybe 200 years after the appearance of U152. There may have been a tiny trace left behind in the Urals or steppe. The way of testing this would be to do a Big Y on these & see if they are on the outer fringes of U106 or U152.

                            There could, of course, have been a west to east migration after these were already established in Europe. Typically, I look for a starburst pattern for a diaspora after a haplogroup gets established, which usually involves a small percentage moving back down the path from whence they came.

                            Timothy Peterman
                            A problem with the Steppes is there have been several population replacements there over the centuries, my thought was under such circumstances the local inhabitants would have a natural tendency to run for the hills. Presumably this is what happened to a lot of L21 in England.

                            Comment


                            • I suspect that the steppe population has been replaced many times in the last 5,000 years, which is probably why M269+ is so rare there today.

                              Timothy Peterman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                                If the great M269+ migration from the steppe to central Europe happened in about 2500 BC, this would have been about 500 years after the appearance of U106 & maybe 200 years after the appearance of U152. There may have been a tiny trace left behind in the Urals or steppe. The way of testing this would be to do a Big Y on these & see if they are on the outer fringes of U106 or U152.

                                There could, of course, have been a west to east migration after these were already established in Europe. Typically, I look for a starburst pattern for a diaspora after a haplogroup gets established, which usually involves a small percentage moving back down the path from whence they came.

                                Timothy Peterman
                                M269 is a myth because he died 13,000 ybp. Perhaps some Z2103 and some R1a branches came from the Steppe to western Europe 4,500 ybp. R1a was found in the CWC.
                                Last edited by 1798; 26 May 2015, 12:07 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X