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The Lost Tribe, M269

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
    And is almost completely absent from Europe. M269 on the other hand shows up in reasonable numbers exactly where M73 is most common and within striking distance of the oldest known R1b remains, coincidence ?
    "R1b1a1 (R-M73)
    Poor SNP typing has caused confusion as to whether this group is R1b or Q, for example in Behar et al 5 former cases of R1b-M73 were relabeled as a subclade of PQR2xR1 , suggesting that this group may really be Q or less likely R2, as the so called R1b-m73 samples were negative for the mutation that defined R1.[26] m73 (2011 name) is defined by the presence of SNP marker M73. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia,[27] and in Altay,[28] but has been found with relatively high frequency among particular populations there including Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32%);[29] and Bashkirs in Bashkortostan (62/471 = 13.2%), 44 of these being found among the 80 tested Bashkirs of the Abzelilovsky District in the Republic of Bashkortostan (55.0%).[30] Four M73 men were also found in a 523-person study of Turkey,[3] and one person in a 168-person study of Crete.[31]

    In 2007, Myres et al. report that out of 193 M73 men found amongst 10,355 widespread men, "all except two Russians occurred outside Europe, either in the Caucasus, Turkey, the Circum-Uralic and North Pakistan regions."

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by 1798 View Post

      In 2007, Myres et al. report that out of 193 M73 men found amongst 10,355 widespread men, "all except two Russians occurred outside Europe, either in the Caucasus, Turkey, the Circum-Uralic and North Pakistan regions."
      C'mon, Ciaran that was the point of my previous post. Did you miss that?

      To repeat, if M269 and M73 are brothers and the former is heavily concentrated in western Europe and the latter is heavily concentrated in Central Asia and the Caucasus region, isn't it reasonable to seriously consider that their parent SNP existed mainly between the two 10,000+ plus years ago? Well?

      Of course, this would mean that M269 probably had a West Asian origin, which is exactly what population geneticists have concluded in the last 5-10 years. Or did they not consult you before publishing their studies?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by 1798 View Post
        "R1b1a1 (R-M73)
        Poor SNP typing has caused confusion as to whether this group is R1b or Q, for example in Behar et al 5 former cases of R1b-M73 were relabeled as a subclade of PQR2xR1 , suggesting that this group may really be Q or less likely R2, as the so called R1b-m73 samples were negative for the mutation that defined R1.[26] m73 (2011 name) is defined by the presence of SNP marker M73. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia,[27] and in Altay,[28] but has been found with relatively high frequency among particular populations there including Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32%);[29] and Bashkirs in Bashkortostan (62/471 = 13.2%), 44 of these being found among the 80 tested Bashkirs of the Abzelilovsky District in the Republic of Bashkortostan (55.0%).[30] Four M73 men were also found in a 523-person study of Turkey,[3] and one person in a 168-person study of Crete.[31]

        In 2007, Myres et al. report that out of 193 M73 men found amongst 10,355 widespread men, "all except two Russians occurred outside Europe, either in the Caucasus, Turkey, the Circum-Uralic and North Pakistan regions."
        Which is what we are talking about : )

        Comment


        • #94
          My K15
          Population * *
          North_Sea 34.43%
          Atlantic 31.38%
          Baltic 13.42%
          Eastern_Euro 7.33%
          West_Med 5.38%
          West_Asian 5.47%
          East_Med - * *
          Red_Sea - * *
          South_Asian 1.95%
          Southeast_Asian - * *
          Siberian - * *
          Amerindian 0.44%
          Oceanian - * *
          Northeast_African 0.20%
          Sub-Saharan - * *


          BB 10806 P312
          Eurogenes K15
          North_Sea 36.57
          Atlantic 29.08
          Baltic 12.89
          Eastern_Euro 7.22
          West_Med 0
          West_Asian 12.34
          East_Med 0
          Red_Sea 0.04
          South_Asian 0.57
          Southeast_Asian 0
          Siberian 0.18
          Amerindian 1.09
          Oceanian 0
          Northeast_African 0
          Sub-Saharan 0


          The Yamnaya samples are not even close to this BB and me. If the Yamnaya arrived in western Europe 4,500 they forgot to take their dna with them.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
            My K15
            The Yamnaya samples are not even close to this BB and me. If the Yamnaya arrived in western Europe 4,500 they forgot to take their dna with them.
            So back to your usual 'argument' of comparing X thousand year old samples to modern autosomal DNA featuring, of course, your good self. Phew just when I thought this was going to descend into trivia : )

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
              So back to your usual 'argument' of comparing X thousand year old samples to modern autosomal DNA featuring, of course, your good self. Phew just when I thought this was going to descend into trivia : )
              Should the BB and the Yamnaya not have the same autosomal dna? They lived around the same era and the Yamnaya are supposed to be the ancestors of the BB.

              M73 originating in Russia has no bearing on where M269 originated at all. Just look at the NA and haplogroup Q.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                Should the BB and the Yamnaya not have the same autosomal dna? They lived around the same era and the Yamnaya are supposed to be the ancestors of the BB.
                Why ?? You do understand how autosomal DNA works don't you ?

                I only share half of mine with my father and there are obviously differences between our K15 results, thankfully or else we'd all be walking about the place looking like the product of a biscuit cutter.

                On the other hand the BB sample and the Yamnaya sample did share one important similarity, they both had a chunk of AE which their European contemporaries lacked.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                  Why ?? You do understand how autosomal DNA works don't you ?

                  I only share half of mine with my father and there are obviously differences between our K15 results, thankfully or else we'd all be walking about the place looking like the product of a biscuit cutter.

                  On the other hand the BB sample and the Yamnaya sample did share one important similarity, they both had a chunk of AE which their European contemporaries lacked.
                  And don't forget to mention that if Yamnaya men came into Europe about 4,500 years ago and began having children with European women, over the course of many generations their Asian DNA would be diluted among their modern European descendants.

                  However, the Haak/Lazaridis study on Yamnaya men and R1b indicates that the very strong presence of both R1b among European men and ANE is closely linked. They conclude that this linkage is due to Yamnaya coming from West Asia (see the last paragraph of my previous post - http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...1&postcount=92), bringing both the R1b and ANE that we see in modern European populations.

                  But all this has been pointed out to 1798 before. Since he doesn't believe it, he can make up his own rules of autosomal DNA inheritance and population genetics in general. And he does make up his own rules, regularly!
                  Last edited by MMaddi; 20 May 2015, 04:24 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                    And don't forget to mention that if Yamnaya men came into Europe about 4,500 years ago and began having children with European women, over the course of many generations their Asian DNA would be diluted among their modern European descendants.

                    However, the Haak/Lazaridis study on Yamnaya men and R1b indicates that the very strong presence of both R1b among European men and ANE is closely linked. They conclude that this linkage is due to Yamnaya coming from West Asia (see the last paragraph of my previous post - http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...1&postcount=92), bringing both the R1b and ANE that we see in modern European populations.

                    But all this has been pointed out to 1798 before. Since he doesn't believe it, he can make up his own rules of autosomal DNA inheritance and population genetics in general. And he does make up his own rules, regularly!
                    Thanks for the correction, I do have a little difficulty remembering all the abbreviations flying about the place these days : )

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                      Why ?? You do understand how autosomal DNA works don't you ?

                      I only share half of mine with my father and there are obviously differences between our K15 results, thankfully or else we'd all be walking about the place looking like the product of a biscuit cutter.

                      On the other hand the BB sample and the Yamnaya sample did share one important similarity, they both had a chunk of ANE which their European contemporaries lacked.
                      I have similar autosomal K15 results to other Irish people in general. It is the population gene pool that I am referring to.


                      Motala SHGs had ANE 7,500 ybp so it was already in western Europe before the Yamanya. Lochsbour and La Brana 8000 ybp had ANE also.

                      Comment


                      • Have you run each of the samples you reference through the Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture calculator?

                        One thing to remember is that with these calculators, all parts of the autosomal DNA will be forced to match whichever model population is closest. None of them conclude that part of a sample is just too far out & fail to assign it.

                        Two samples of autosomal DNA that don't resemble each other much could be forced to the ANE category, simply because each matches it better than the other populations available.

                        Timothy Peterman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                          Have you run each of the samples you reference through the Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture calculator?

                          One thing to remember is that with these calculators, all parts of the autosomal DNA will be forced to match whichever model population is closest. None of them conclude that part of a sample is just too far out & fail to assign it.

                          Two samples of autosomal DNA that don't resemble each other much could be forced to the ANE category, simply because each matches it better than the other populations available.

                          Timothy Peterman
                          I asked Davidski about the similar profile that I have to the 2000 Hinxton Celt F999925 at gedmatch and he thought it was okay and that it is something that he would expect to see.

                          Comment


                          • No big surprise there, regarding the Hinxton Celt.

                            Did you ask Davidski about all of these other samples? Especially those that re pre-Bronze Age (ie, Neolithic or Mesolithic)? Specifically about the Ancient North Eurasian content?

                            What does Davidski think about the steppe hypothesis & the Yamnaya results? He may be as much of an expert on this as anyone.

                            Timothy Peterman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                              No big surprise there, regarding the Hinxton Celt.

                              Did you ask Davidski about all of these other samples? Especially those that re pre-Bronze Age (ie, Neolithic or Mesolithic)? Specifically about the Ancient North Eurasian content?

                              What does Davidski think about the steppe hypothesis & the Yamnaya results? He may be as much of an expert on this as anyone.

                              Timothy Peterman
                              Davidski makes his views known on his blog but his views are not infallible.

                              Why does the LBK and southern Europeans have little or no ANE? We all came from the same ancestors.

                              The Gedrosia component is another mystery one. The two Yamnaya at gedmatch have 27% and I have 10% but Motala,LBK etc. have zero.

                              We are going nowhere without ancient dna from the Isles.

                              Comment


                              • Without ancient DNA from the Isles...

                                All conclusions are always tentative & will be changed whenever conflicting data is found. That is generally the way science works.

                                So when we talk about M269 coming from the steppes, etc., etc., it is a tentaive statement... In light of everything that has been found & published up to 2015, a handful of clades derived from M269 migrated from the steppe into central & western Europe in about 2500 BC, bringing the Bronze Age, horses & Indo-European languages to central and western Europe.

                                There will be another tidbit of data that will compel theorists to modify their hypotheses. This was true when the theories of Oppenheimer, Sykes & Wells ruled the roost (over a decade ago) and it is true today.

                                What happened in the distant past happened... but the knowledge about it isn't chiseled in stone. Any serious student of this subject should always be willing to change one's understanding in light of new data.

                                Timothy Peterman

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