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The Lost Tribe, M269

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  • #76
    The M269 bottleneck is evidence that our R1b ancestors did not weather the Ice-Age in Iberia or France. It seems that they did not expand into the Isles directly after Ice-Age after all but perhaps in the Neolithic.

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    • #77
      Busby 2011
      Abstract

      "Recently, the debate on the origins of the major European Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1b2-M269 has reignited, and opinion has moved away from Palaeolithic origins to the notion of a younger Neolithic spread of these chromosomes from the Near East. Here, we address this debate by investigating frequency patterns and diversity in the largest collection of R1b1b2-M269 chromosomes yet assembled. Our analysis reveals no geographical trends in diversity, in contradiction to expectation under the Neolithic hypothesis, and suggests an alternative explanation for the apparent cline in diversity recently described. We further investigate the young, STR-based time to the most recent common ancestor estimates proposed so far for R-M269-related lineages and find evidence for an appreciable effect of microsatellite choice on age estimates. As a consequence, the existing data and tools are insufficient to make credible estimates for the age of this haplogroup, and conclusions about the timing of its origin and dispersal should be viewed with a large degree of caution."

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      • #78
        This 2011 paper is to be ignored. They didn't study or take into account L23, L51, Z2103, L11, P312, or U106, etc.

        All that they looked at was M269 (nothing below that). M269 is so young, it is hard to cluster. Now that we know the structure within M269, the liklihood of anything other than a steppe origin just a few thousand years ago has become increasingly remote.

        Timothy Peterman

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        • #79
          Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
          This 2011 paper is to be ignored. They didn't study or take into account L23, L51, Z2103, L11, P312, or U106, etc.

          All that they looked at was M269 (nothing below that). M269 is so young, it is hard to cluster. Now that we know the structure within M269, the liklihood of anything other than a steppe origin just a few thousand years ago has become increasingly remote.

          Timothy Peterman
          There is no evidence to show that L51 or L11 originated in the Steppe. The Paris Basin is the more likely origin place of L11 during the Neolithic.

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          • #80
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs

            http://ibg.anrb.ru/disovet/za****a/2...ovaAvtoref.pdf
            Last edited by Subwoofer; 19 May 2015, 06:46 PM.

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            • #81
              R1b in the past could move from west to east. The Gauls fled to Turkey 2000 ybp. There were Celtic settlements in Russia and the Ukraine probably all western movements carrying R1b etc.

              The other link you provided is not a language I can read.

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              • #82
                But when you look at all aspects of R1b M269 in context (where do we find M73, a sibling clade?); where do we find P297*?, etc. What about R1a? And Q? Not to mention P or the K subclades...

                The steppe/ central Asian source for R1b M269 is so obvious that someone has to deny/ ignore a huge swath of data to maintain a western European source.

                The principle of parsimony, when applied to the data, makes a steppe origin highly probable. Considering that no trace of R1b M269 has ever been found in western Europe from before about 2500 BC, the burden of proof lies on those who claim that such exists. A similar burden also lies on those who support the steppe hypothesis; but that burden has been met, especially with analysis of the Yamna remains.

                The chances of R1b M269 in western Europe from prior to say 4000 BC is highly unlikely and would probably be as rare as an authentic Sasquatch sighting in North America.

                Timothy Peterman

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                  But when you look at all aspects of R1b M269 in context (where do we find M73, a sibling clade?); where do we find P297*?, etc.
                  Indeed. Myers data on M73 is very telling, despite having 2065 Western European samples no M73+ were found, you have to move east to find that one and the population with the largest percentage was Bashkortostan with a very healthy 23% out of 329 samples.

                  This study on the Bashkirs found one area with 55% M73 and two areas with M269 at over 80% !!!

                  http://ftp.anrb.ru/molgen/Lobov_AS.PDF

                  The Trofimova study on the Bashkirs found L51 dotted all over the place and two areas with U106, one at 14%. This study also found the only known L23* that didn't need digging up, the other of course was found in the Yamna study : )

                  http://ibg.anrb.ru/disovet/za****a/2...ovaAvtoref.pdf

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                    Indeed. Myers data on M73 is very telling, despite having 2065 Western European samples no M73+ were found, you have to move east to find that one and the population with the largest percentage was Bashkortostan with a very healthy 23% out of 329 samples.

                    This study on the Bashkirs found one area with 55% M73 and two areas with M269 at over 80% !!!

                    http://ftp.anrb.ru/molgen/Lobov_AS.PDF

                    The Trofimova study on the Bashkirs found L51 dotted all over the place and two areas with U106, one at 14%. This study also found the only known L23* that didn't need digging up, the other of course was found in the Yamna study : )

                    http://ibg.anrb.ru/disovet/za****a/2...ovaAvtoref.pdf
                    What downstream branches of M269 did they find in the Bashkirs?

                    Two 4,600 ybp P312 were found at Kromsdorf BB site. Is that not right?

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                      What downstream branches of M269 did they find in the Bashkirs?

                      Two 4,600 ybp P312 were found at Kromsdorf BB site. Is that not right?
                      The Lobov study only covered M73 & M269

                      Trofimova's study study covered Volga-Ural region and not just Baskhers, as I originally said (apologies)

                      The SNP tested Baskher group (Burzyan Bashkirs) was mostly Z2105 but also had an L51, out of 58.

                      L51 was also found at low levels in Komi (where L23* also turned up), Mari, and the Tuymazinsky Tatars.

                      The Tuymazinsky Tatars were the group that had 14% U106 and 2 U106 out of 59 samples turned up in Mordvinians.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                        The Lobov study only covered M73 & M269

                        Trofimova's study study covered Volga-Ural region and not just Baskhers, as I originally said (apologies)

                        The SNP tested Baskher group (Burzyan Bashkirs) was mostly Z2105 but also had an L51, out of 58.

                        L51 was also found at low levels in Komi (where L23* also turned up), Mari, and the Tuymazinsky Tatars.

                        The Tuymazinsky Tatars were the group that had 14% U106 and 2 U106 out of 59 samples turned up in Mordvinians.
                        All those R1b groups could have been brought there in the Bronze-Age or by the Celts.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                          All those R1b groups could have been brought there in the Bronze-Age or by the Celts.
                          Can you suggest which Western European Celts brought M73 into the area ?

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                            Can you suggest which Western European Celts brought M73 into the area ?
                            M73 is brother to M269 and should be around the same age, 13,200 ybp.

                            Are you suggesting that U106 and U152 originated in the Republic of Bashkortostan?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                              M73 is brother to M269 and should be around the same age, 13,200 ybp.

                              Are you suggesting that U106 and U152 originated in the Republic of Bashkortostan?
                              Well, you've admitted that M269 and M73 are brothers. That's easily seen in a haplotree.

                              How about considering a genealogy example? John and Steve are brothers who were both born in Baltimore. John's grandchildren live in Boston and Steve's grandchildren live in Atlanta.

                              If you prefer the South, you would probably assume that John and Steve were born somewhere near Atlanta. If you prefer the North, you would probably assume that John and Steve were born somewhere near Boston. And you'd be wrong in both cases. John and Steve were born between where their grandchildren live.

                              In other words, families move around and so do population groups. If M269 is dominant in western Europe and M73 is fairly common in Central Asia, maybe we should be looking somewhere between those two locations for where their ggggggg-grandaddy SNP lived 10,000 years ago. Take a look at a map for roughly where that is.

                              Makes sense, doesn't it? Or do we just pick and choose what makes sense?
                              Last edited by MMaddi; 20 May 2015, 12:36 PM.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                                M73 is brother to M269 and should be around the same age, 13,200 ybp.

                                Are you suggesting that U106 and U152 originated in the Republic of Bashkortostan?
                                And is almost completely absent from Europe. M269 on the other hand shows up in reasonable numbers exactly where M73 is most common and within striking distance of the oldest known R1b remains, coincidence ?

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