The Lost Tribe, M269

[1798]

Answering questions with more questions, a good precursor to circular discussion. Congratulations.



According to you.

The K15 calculator isn't conclusive evidence, it just seemingly fits your background.

Keep throwing those darts

You said that you are a scientist and yet you don't give any answers either. If I am wrong about M269 then say it.

The K15 shows similar results for other Irish people. So it is not a coincidence.

[1798]

Hmm you may have stated that you thought it was a Bronze Age marker...did you not also state at one point that you believed it had been in Ireland since the Megalithic Period? Or that your branch of U106 descended from Doggerland?
You also stated Somerled was a Celt based on what one of your 'psychic' friends had stated from seeing "Somerled" written on a piece of paper...

You are free to change your mind as you wish, if you had scientific evidence to back up your theories they would seem more credible.

If you threw 100 darts at a dart board you may get one bulls-eye, you may get none, you may get 20...but I wouldn't go as far to say that you could play darts

You could come up with a bunch of theories about the same SNP and one of them could seem plausible...possibly.

Have you established that Z156 was from Bronze Age Ireland? If so, how?

Yfull shows a TMRCA of 4,900 ybp for Z156 which is within the Megalthic period in Ireland.

My friend said that "Somerled" did not come from Scandinavia.

[1798]

Admittedly I have a mild tendency towards sarcasm but I am curious as to whom he's mixing me up with : )

Everyone's thoughts are in their words.

[N21163]

You said that you are a scientist and yet you don't give any answers either. If I am wrong about M269 then say it.

You and I have exchanged views on M269 previously.
Nothing has changed from current thinking at this point.
No one is withholding information at this time and to throw around ideas

You have made it clear in previous posts that you actually don't care what other people think. People use current scientific studies to support current thinking and you dismiss it.

You are not advancing scientific research by dismissing it, so there is seemingly no point to your discussion.

I, and others, have previously stated that every so often you bring up the same topic for discussion.

Anyone can come up with a theory, but yours do not seem to be backed by any scientific evidence.

The K15 shows similar results for other Irish people. So it is not a coincidence.

These calculators will seemingly fit with your DNA and other Irish people...so it could work for some Irish people...once again it doesn't work for everyone.

I understand your wife's results came back as "Orcadian"? Does she have Scottish ancestry? Isn't she Irish like you? Why would her result be different then? Is there a possibility that the calculator algorithms don't work for everyone?

Or is this where you chime in and say "it could be ancient"...it could be...perhaps...but to say "it could be ancient" is speculative...

[N21163]

Yfull shows a TMRCA of 4,900 ybp for Z156 which is within the Megalthic period in Ireland.

I see, so if research so now you are trying to have a foot in every camp and say "...at some point I said Z156 was from [insert historical time period], see I was right".

My friend said that "Somerled" did not come from Scandinavia.

A 'psychic' must hold all the answers hey? I truly don't care what she said, the point was that the claim had no basis in science.

[Subwoofer]

Everyone's thoughts are in their words.

Clearly, but words are a subset of thoughts : )

Either way I'm not sure what your point is ?

[1798]

You and I have exchanged views on M269 previously.
Nothing has changed from current thinking at this point.
No one is withholding information at this time and to throw around ideas

You have made it clear in previous posts that you actually don't care what other people think. People use current scientific studies to support current thinking and you dismiss it.

You are not advancing scientific research by dismissing it, so there is seemingly no point to your discussion.

I, and others, have previously stated that every so often you bring up the same topic for discussion.

Anyone can come up with a theory, but yours do not seem to be backed by any scientific evidence.



These calculators will seemingly fit with your DNA and other Irish people...so it could work for some Irish people...once again it doesn't work for everyone.

I understand your wife's results came back as "Orcadian"? Does she have Scottish ancestry? Isn't she Irish like you? Why would her result be different then? Is there a possibility that the calculator algorithms don't work for everyone?

Or is this where you chime in and say "it could be ancient"...it could be...perhaps...but to say "it could be ancient" is speculative...

Busby's is a study of the descendants of M269, not M269 and the bottleneck. As far as I know M269 13,000-8,000 ybp has not been found anywhere in Europe in ancient remains. One could assume that the M269 bottleneck occurred in a small region such as we see with the lost tribes.The WAMH is a major clue to the origin of L11 and perhaps to M269 as well.


The calculator algorithms don't work for everyone because they need to be adjusted. Not so long ago everyone in the Isles was shown as Orcadian. My Wife has no known Orcadian relatives.

[1798]

Clearly, but words are a subset of thoughts : )

Either way I'm not sure what your point is ?

The less that you write the less someone will know about you.

[1798]

@N21163
You could have suggested lots of other densely forested regions in Europe where M269 and his descendants hid out for 6000 years. 7000 years ago they came out of the forest and are the ancestors of 300 million men in western Europe today. One could not see a lost tribe in Brazil producing so many in the future.

[N21163]

Busby's is a study of the descendants of M269, not M269 and the bottleneck. As far as I know M269 13,000-8,000 ybp has not been found anywhere in Europe in ancient remains. One could assume that the M269 bottleneck occurred in a small region such as we see with the lost tribes.The WAMH is a major clue to the origin of L11 and perhaps to M269 as well.

The likely origin and age of M269 has been discussed previously, if you don't agree with the current model and thinking then come up with a better idea that is based in scientific research and analysis.

The calculator algorithms don't work for everyone because they need to be adjusted.

You got there eventually.

Not so long ago everyone in the Isles was shown as Orcadian. My Wife has no known Orcadian relatives.

Due to the parameters of the original population finder, yes.

@N21163
You could have suggested lots of other densely forested regions in Europe where M269 and his descendants hid out for 6000 years.

I didn't mention any forested regions in Europe.

7000 years ago they came out of the forest and are the ancestors of 300 million men in western Europe today. One could not see a lost tribe in Brazil producing so many in the future.[/QUOTE]

The lost tribes of Brazil became isolated and remained isolated in small nomadic groups.

A lost tribe in Brazil and population expansion in Europe are not the same thing and it would be foolish for you to try and make them so. Ethnic and tribal groups as well as cultures in Europe and the Americas developed differently, you know this.

[shentonjim]

Dogger land

Have you considered Dogggerland for the origin of R-M269

http://theconversation.com/doggerlan...ay-again-26472

[1798]

The likely origin and age of M269 has been discussed previously, if you don't agree with the current model and thinking then come up with a better idea that is based in scientific research and analysis.



You got there eventually.



Due to the parameters of the original population finder, yes.



I didn't mention any forested regions in Europe.

7000 years ago they came out of the forest and are the ancestors of 300 million men in western Europe today. One could not see a lost tribe in Brazil producing so many in the future.

The lost tribes of Brazil became isolated and remained isolated in small nomadic groups.

A lost tribe in Brazil and population expansion in Europe are not the same thing and it would be foolish for you to try and make them so. Ethnic and tribal groups as well as cultures in Europe and the Americas developed differently, you know this.[/QUOTE]

Where can I find the current 43 SNP M269 bottleneck model?

Why not? They are hunter gatherers today like our ancestors were in the past.

[1798]

The BigY results are showing lots of single line descendant y trees with some people having 30-40 novel variants similar to the M269 event.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=6

[T E Peterman]

A few things to consider when looking at the yfull tree:

1. The upstream clade from M269 is shown to be P297.

2. There is a list of 38 SNPs, which includes novel variants, that define M269. M269 is shown as a branch, which originated 13,200 years ago. It's subclades (L23 & PF7558) are shown as originating 6,400 years ago. The MRCA of all who are M269+ is thus 6,400 years ago.

3. This means that anyone with data uploaded to ytree, who is M269+ shares those 38 SNPs.

4. If someone were to upload data who was M269+, but who didn't share all 38 SNPs, it would mean that M269 was higher in the list & that some of the 38 SNPs were downstream of M269, but still upstream of all L23+ & PF7558+ participants.

5. If someone were to upload data who was M269-, but was P297+ and shared some of the SNPs on the M269 branch, we would know that some of the 38 SNPs originated before M269, and thus define a separate branch, with which M269 would have a new MRCA.

6. Only about 3,000 or so men have uploaded data to yfull.

7. Of these, only 2 (TWO) are M269+ & L23- and PF7558-. Thus, we haven't had many opportunities to ascertain whether additional branches may have developed between the origin of the M269 branch & the advent of L23 & PF7558.

8. Of the 3,000 or so men, only 0 (ZERO) are P297+ & M269- and M478- (M478 is a sibling clade to M269 and I think equivalent to M73).

Therefore, we have an extremely small pool of results with which to ascertain whether the MRCA of all M269+ is actually older than 6,400 years ago, or whether the origin of the M269 branch is actually a lot more recent.

The suggestion that M269 existed in splendid isolation for 8,000 years or so is based more on a lack of data than anything else.

To repeat what I have said before: We need to encourage anyone who is M269* (ie, M269+ & L23- & PF7558-) to do the Big Y test. We need to encourage anyone who if P297* (ie, P297+ & M269- & M478-) to do the Big Y test.

Since most of the people who fit in either group probably lived in Central Asia, some of the most needed participants probably haven't even heard of the Big Y test. Would be nice if a well funded organization like National Geographic could take all of the indigenous samples that Spencer Wells & company collected from all over the world & get them Big Y tested -that might not be possible.

Timothy Peterman

[Subwoofer]

^ This forum could do with a Like button or some such.