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The Lost Tribe, M269

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  • #16
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    It is also plausible that the group survived in western or central Europe. It does not help that some people still want to make R1b the main vehicle of the PIE. That is nothing to do with science.
    Apart from the fact that this is now also being proposed by genetic scientists, archaeologists and linguists and not just the amateur DNA community ?

    BTW R1b is only being considered a (very good) candidate for bringing Indo European languages to Western Europe not everywhere, the Indo European language family kind of got around a bit and nobody's suggesting R1b is responsible for its entire spread. PIE itself clearly couldn't move from its urheimat or else it wouldn't be the prototype : )

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    • #17
      How does R1a fit into the spread of Proto-Indo-European?

      W. (Mr.)

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      • #18
        No one WANTS R1b to be the PIE haplogroup. However, a large number of scientists & researchers have observed a strong correlation between the centum half of the Indo-European languages and the spread of R1b M269+. The R1a folk seem to carry the satem half.

        All that we can ever do is observe the dots and try to connect them.

        Timothy Peterman

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        • #19
          centum, satem

          Thank you Timothy!

          When in high school, those weird concepts like centum and satem seem to be entirely irrelevant to anything one would encounter later in life

          Mr. W.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
            Apart from the fact that this is now also being proposed by genetic scientists, archaeologists and linguists and not just the amateur DNA community ?

            BTW R1b is only being considered a (very good) candidate for bringing Indo European languages to Western Europe not everywhere, the Indo European language family kind of got around a bit and nobody's suggesting R1b is responsible for its entire spread. PIE itself clearly couldn't move from its urheimat or else it wouldn't be the prototype : )
            At present it is only a theory.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              At present it is only a theory.
              Which of course sets it heads and tails above the vast majority of your posts : )

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              • #22
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                I think that it may not be possible. I hope that people understand now why we are not finding R1b M269 in ancient remains in western Europe or anywhere else for that matter. A needle in a haystack would be simpler to find.
                Yet there's no trouble finding G2 in ancient remains from the period of 5,000-7,000 years ago. And a few E1b1b and I.

                What makes R1b so hard to find in that period? Could it be that it just wasn't common in western Europe in that period? That seems the most likely explanation to me.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                  Which of course sets it heads and tails above the vast majority of your posts : )
                  You don't have to read my posts and I don't have to read your books. That will change when you change. I think that you are making a big mistake with some of your writings just the same way that your friend Sykes.....

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    You don't have to read my posts and I don't have to read your books. That will change when you change. I think that you are making a big mistake with some of your writings just the same way that your friend Sykes.....
                    I take it you're being figurative ?

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                    • #25
                      The M269 bottleneck could have lasted 6000 years between 13,000 and 7000 ybp.

                      The Ardennes is like a place that a small tribe could have existed in the past in isolation.

                      The deforestation of the Amazon is exposing some of these small unknown tribes today. Did the Neolithic have the same effect on our HG ancestors?!!!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                        The M269 bottleneck could have lasted 6000 years between 13,000 and 7000 ybp.

                        The Ardennes is like a place that a small tribe could have existed in the past in isolation.

                        The deforestation of the Amazon is exposing some of these small unknown tribes today. Did the Neolithic have the same effect on our HG ancestors?!!!
                        Yfull have it at 16700 years old, would have been pretty unpleasant around there at that time. Plus you would need to come up with an explanation as to why they waited 9 to 10,000 yrs before eventually bursting out into the surrounding populations.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                          Yfull have it at 16700 years old, would have been pretty unpleasant around there at that time. Plus you would need to come up with an explanation as to why they waited 9 to 10,000 yrs before eventually bursting out into the surrounding populations.
                          R-M269PF6495 * CTS8665/PF6479 * S3/PF6485... 35 SNPs11600 ybp, TMRCA CI
                          95% 13200 ybp, TMRCA 6400 ybp

                          Our part of the R Y-Tree burst into life during the Neolithic.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                            R-M269PF6495 * CTS8665/PF6479 * S3/PF6485... 35 SNPs11600 ybp, TMRCA CI
                            95% 13200 ybp, TMRCA 6400 ybp

                            Our part of the R Y-Tree burst into life during the Neolithic.
                            That'll teach me not to hurry

                            Had to take one of the kids on a driving lesson, he's not doing dad either !!

                            Irrespective, it would still be unlikely for an island of R1b to exist for that length of time without leaching out or more likely getting overwhelmed by the more common haplotypes in the area. Your example of 'lost' Amazon tribes are likely genetically very similar to their better known neighbours.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                              That'll teach me not to hurry

                              Had to take one of the kids on a driving lesson, he's not doing dad either !!

                              Irrespective, it would still be unlikely for an island of R1b to exist for that length of time without leaching out or more likely getting overwhelmed by the more common haplotypes in the area. Your example of 'lost' Amazon tribes are likely genetically very similar to their better known neighbours.
                              I am just trying to understand how 300 million R1b men in western Europe today are descended from a single line that existed for 6000 years.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                                I am just trying to understand how 300 million R1b men in western Europe today are descended from a single line that existed for 6000 years.
                                The commonest normal notion is they had some sort of advantage, possibly pastoralists with the ability to digest raw milk ? but of course it could be luck of the draw !!

                                That said they aren't the only ones, both I1 and I2 have common ancestors not that long ago, however the common ancestor of I1 and I2 is much much older and they turn up in European Neolithic aDNA quite regularly

                                Of course there's been a strong suspicion that R1b is young in Western Europe for a long time now, hence all those conversations about WAMH which lead to a small number of amateur genetic genealogists to suggest it came in with the Indo European languge family.

                                That said I don't think anybody disagrees we need more evidence and who knows maybe it will all go up in a puff of smoke, but I doubt it.

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