The Lost Tribe, M269

[Pillar_of_fire]

Have a look at http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/
the R-Z2103 is formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp

Bulgarian sample YF01886 is R-Z2110*, formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
Bulgarian sample YF02716 is on R-Y10789 --> BY611/A1777/Y10789 formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp a
Bulgarian sample YF01913 is R-Y5586 --> Y5586 * Y5588 formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp

There is yet another Bulgarian sample 274480 at FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...na/dna-results (tetsted 23andMe, Geno2.0 and FTDNA, but not yet with BIG Y) that is PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+ L23- L49+ (L49+ Sanger sequencing at FTDNA)

There is also a R-L277 Bulgarian sample N81217 (Geno2.0)

So quite a deversity of R1b basal split samples not seen in western Europe

[Subwoofer]

I see 1798 has taken the subject to Molgen where he can converse with himself without any annoying interruptions : )

[1798]

The Yamnaya were Z2103 but where are all the descendants of the Z2103 Yamnaya in western Europe?

The 43 SNP bottleneck shows that M269 did not come from Anatolia with the early farmers.

[T E Peterman]

As I have mentioned before, and as you continue to ignore, my mother's brother is Z2103+. His patriline is descended from the Robinson family of England. They settled in Virginia in the mid 1600s, later moved to Tennessee & then to Illinois & Iowa.

I had my uncle upgraded to the Big Y. As a Z2103+ man, I thought his results could be very interesting. All of matches that branch off prior to about 5,000 years ago are clearly Anatolian or Balkan. All of his matches that branch off more recently than 4,000 years ago are English or French.

Something very profound happened in this patriline. It looks like my uncle's tiny branch of Z2103 migrated from the Balkans or Anatolia between 3000 BC & 2000 BC.

The most likely hypothesis is the Robinson patriline accompanied men belonging to other haplogroups in a migration from Point A (SE Europe or Anatolia) to Point B (NW Europe/ the Atlantic seaboard).

Timothy Peterman

[LadyAlaise]

Davidski makes his views known on his blog but his views are not infallible.

*ahem* :::Cough, cough::: Kettle Black much?

[1798]

As I have mentioned before, and as you continue to ignore, my mother's brother is Z2103+. His patriline is descended from the Robinson family of England. They settled in Virginia in the mid 1600s, later moved to Tennessee & then to Illinois & Iowa.

I had my uncle upgraded to the Big Y. As a Z2103+ man, I thought his results could be very interesting. All of matches that branch off prior to about 5,000 years ago are clearly Anatolian or Balkan. All of his matches that branch off more recently than 4,000 years ago are English or French.

Something very profound happened in this patriline. It looks like my uncle's tiny branch of Z2103 migrated from the Balkans or Anatolia between 3000 BC & 2000 BC.

The most likely hypothesis is the Robinson patriline accompanied men belonging to other haplogroups in a migration from Point A (SE Europe or Anatolia) to Point B (NW Europe/ the Atlantic seaboard).

Timothy Peterman

I don't ignore the fact that Z2103 is scarce in the Isles and Iberia.SNPs are region specific and P312 and U106 are western European and the dates for those branches look like they are not correct.

[1798]

Map of Z2103.
http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/177/
Map of P312
http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/197/
Map of U106
http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/198/

[Subwoofer]

Map of Z2103.
http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/177/
Map of P312
http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/197/
Map of U106
http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/198/

Maps based on FTDNA data aren't really much cop, FTDNA's customer base is very USA centric and most (assuming they have solid evidence of where their ancestry originated, which most don't) have NW European ancestry which again his heavily biased towards the Isles and then I'd say even further biased to Ireland and Scotland.

Scientific population studies really provide the only reliable data and though not exactly a scientific study probably the best data for the Isles is from Britains DNA frequency maps.

This is the data for R-M269 x U106 & P312


ScotlandNorthEast 1%
ScotlandNorthWest 1%
ScotlandCentral 1%
ScotlandSouthEast 2%
ScotlandSouthWest 3%
EnglandNorth 1%
EnglandEast 3%
EnglandYorkshires 1%
EnglandCentral 3%
EnglandSouthEast 2%
EnglandSouthWest 5%
Wales 2%
Connacht 0
Leinster 0
Munster 0
Ulster 1%

[Tourist]

Top this!

I am M222 which is downstream of M269, a white guy with green eyes and who once had dark brown hair although it has now become more grey and white.

But after Big Y testing it turned out that I also have an ancient upstream African Aborigine SNP marker, untraceable to any particular group but African nonetheless.

And there also is at least one other M222 from not far away in the north of Ireland who also has the same African marker.

Yep, genetics really does reveal a lot!

[N21163]

Top this!

I am M222 which is downstream of M269, a white guy with green eyes and who once had dark brown hair although it has now become more grey and white.

But after Big Y testing it turned out that I also have an ancient upstream African Aborigine SNP marker, untraceable to any particular group but African nonetheless.

And there also is at least one other M222 from not far away in the north of Ireland who also has the same African marker.

Yep, genetics really does reveal a lot!

I recall discussing this with you about a year ago. It sounded as though the claim did not have much substance to it, have you had any new developments since then?:

- http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...8&postcount=69
- http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...5&postcount=71
- http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...7&postcount=74
- http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...2&postcount=89
- http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...3&postcount=90
- http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...5&postcount=93

[T E Peterman]

Most people who do the Big Y have upstream markers that had never been detected before and are included in the novel variants. Since humanity originated in Africa & then spread across the planet, this doesn't surprise me in the least. We all have these markers -and the really ancient ones found are probably identical.

Timothy Peterman

[Armando]

Top this!

I am M222 which is downstream of M269, a white guy with green eyes and who once had dark brown hair although it has now become more grey and white.

But after Big Y testing it turned out that I also have an ancient upstream African Aborigine SNP marker, untraceable to any particular group but African nonetheless.

And there also is at least one other M222 from not far away in the north of Ireland who also has the same African marker.

Yep, genetics really does reveal a lot!

That's called a recurrent SNP. Meaning that it happened in a different subclade other than the subclade that it was originally found in. It's just a coincidence. Recurrent SNPs aren't as uncommon as you might think. One of the more common ones is L176.1 in R1a and L176.2 in R1b. It's the exact same mutation in the exact same region of the Y-chromosome. The recurrent SNPs happened after the trees diverged. The same with your recurrent SNP. Yours happened after the M222 tree diverged and it happened in Africans many thousands of years ago. Y-DNA also has nothing to do with physical characteristics which is from autosomal DNA.

[1798]

That's called a recurrent SNP. Meaning that it happened in a different subclade other than the subclade that it was originally found in. It's just a coincidence. Recurrent SNPs aren't as uncommon as you might think. One of the more common ones is L176.1 in R1a and L176.2 in R1b. It's the exact same mutation in the exact same region of the Y-chromosome. The recurrent SNPs happened after the trees diverged. The same with your recurrent SNP. Yours happened after the M222 tree diverged and it happened in Africans many thousands of years ago. Y-DNA also has nothing to do with physical characteristics which is from autosomal DNA.

It is also known as dna replication.

[1798]

Top this!

I am M222 which is downstream of M269, a white guy with green eyes and who once had dark brown hair although it has now become more grey and white.

But after Big Y testing it turned out that I also have an ancient upstream African Aborigine SNP marker, untraceable to any particular group but African nonetheless.

And there also is at least one other M222 from not far away in the north of Ireland who also has the same African marker.

Yep, genetics really does reveal a lot!

You are lucky to have this marker because it will determine the ancestral group that you belong to.

[Armando]

It is also known as dna replication.

Not based on what I have read. I think you are confusing subjects.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=recurrent+SNP