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The Lost Tribe, M269

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  • My usage described people who were M269+. I wasn't talking about the founder. I was in too much of a hurry to say M269+, L23+, L51+, L11+, etc.

    I am M269+. So are you.

    Timothy Peterman

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    • Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
      My usage described people who were M269+. I wasn't talking about the founder. I was in too much of a hurry to say M269+, L23+, L51+, L11+, etc.

      I am M269+. So are you.

      Timothy Peterman
      I understand but it would be better to use the correct line that lived at that time instead of the ancestral line. It is strange that only three P312 have turned up in all of Europe in the ancient dna tests so far.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
        M269 is a myth because he died 13,000 ybp
        Then why did you start a thread, in which you postulated the origin of M269, entitled 'The Lost Tribe, M269' : )

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        • When describing a general migration, trend, or other happening, insisting on the use the terminal SNP is overkill. No one can be sure, in any line of descent, what the actual terminal SNP was at the time of any migration.

          The use of a plus sign indicates that the people in question were positive for the SNP & it can also indicate that there are a number of SNPs beneath it.

          Is it wrong to speak of R1b men? Or R1a men? Or G2a? I1? etc. We do this all the time. These aren't terminal SNPs.

          Timothy Peterman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
            Then why did you start a thread, in which you postulated the origin of M269, entitled 'The Lost Tribe, M269' : )
            The place of origin of M269 might point to the origin of L11.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
              When describing a general migration, trend, or other happening, insisting on the use the terminal SNP is overkill. No one can be sure, in any line of descent, what the actual terminal SNP was at the time of any migration.

              The use of a plus sign indicates that the people in question were positive for the SNP & it can also indicate that there are a number of SNPs beneath it.

              Is it wrong to speak of R1b men? Or R1a men? Or G2a? I1? etc. We do this all the time. These aren't terminal SNPs.

              Timothy Peterman
              That is right and so we can't just assume that P312 or U106 moved with this migration from the Steppe as none were found in the Yamnaya. My 2000 ybp ancestor did not have the SNPs that I have today.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                M269 is a myth because he died 13,000 ybp.
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                The place of origin of M269 might point to the origin of L11.
                So your argument is ???

                Or was that little myth thing a soundbite : )

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                • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                  That is right and so we can't just assume that P312 or U106 moved with this migration from the Steppe as none were found in the Yamnaya. My 2000 ybp ancestor did not have the SNPs that I have today.
                  Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                  personally I'm beginning to think U106 and P312 could have originally appeared in the East European part of the Steppes
                  Who's assuming ?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                    Who's assuming ?
                    There is absolutely no evidence to show that P312 or U106 originated in the Steppe.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                      There is absolutely no evidence to show that P312 or U106 originated in the Steppe.
                      There is evidence that's leaning that direction and tentative evidence that could suggest a similar story for U106 but something more solid is required, however something more solid could turn up that places the origin of one or both somewhere in Western Europe. Either way there's nothing wrong with a little speculating : )

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                        There is evidence that's leaning that direction and tentative evidence that could suggest a similar story for U106 but something more solid is required, however something more solid could turn up that places the origin of one or both somewhere in Western Europe. Either way there's nothing wrong with a little speculating : )
                        FTDNA are showing the majority of my 404 25 marker matches as M269 and it should be L11. A small number have SNP tested and their groups are shown and all are under L11. M269 is 13,000 ybp and L11 is 6000 ybp. A lot of them have the WAMH badge.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                          FTDNA are showing the majority of my 404 25 marker matches as M269 and it should be L11. A small number have SNP tested and their groups are shown and all are under L11. M269 is 13,000 ybp and L11 is 6000 ybp. A lot of them have the WAMH badge.
                          None of which is evidence of where L11 originated.

                          Comment


                          • BTW you keep going on about M269 being 13000 yrs old but Yfull currently have the TMRCA for this level as 6400 ybp. Their TMRCA for the L11 level is 4900 ybp, personally I think this is probably a little too young but either way trying to make issue out of the formation date of the level is folly.
                            Last edited by Subwoofer; 27 May 2015, 10:20 AM.

                            Comment


                            • I think the Balkans remains a possibility that shouldn't be ignored. I say this because "Old Europe" was apparently wiped out & replaced by a new culture of people who rode horses in about 4000 BC. This is probably why M269+ (xU106, xP312) is so strong in the Balkans & Anatolia.

                              A few years ago, some suggested that these R1b newcomers in the Balkans followed the Danube upstream in about 3000 BC into central Europe.

                              Some have suggested, more recently, that the migration may have been to the north of the Carpathians, crossing from the Ukraine into Poland & Germany & from there dispersing over central & western Europe.

                              I would recommend that anyone trying to interpret what happened in the history of M269+ to consider one or the other of these, or something similar, in trying to develop an understanding of what happened.

                              There are some who, upon learning a decade ago that his R1b markers indicated that Altlantic Modal haplotype simply "hung the cert on the wall" or put it in their family files & moved on. Their error in repeating the Paleolithic Antlantic seaboard claims for R1b today can be understood, simply because they haven't kept current with the latest discoveries.

                              However, I find it baffling that someone who is staying up to date with this & talks about newly discovered terminal SNPs & what it all means, could reject the steppe hypothesis in favor of the old Atlantic seaboard hypothesis that, with every passing day, becomes ever more debunked.

                              Timothy Peterman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                                I think the Balkans remains a possibility that shouldn't be ignored. I say this because "Old Europe" was apparently wiped out & replaced by a new culture of people who rode horses in about 4000 BC. This is probably why M269+ (xU106, xP312) is so strong in the Balkans & Anatolia.
                                Going by Yfull's estimates for U106 and P312 this does look more than reasonable. I'm stuck on these U106 and U152s turning up in the Urals at the moment though, however that could be a buggeration factor thrown in to confuse the issue : )

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