The Basques

[N21163]

Why are people getting upset at H and R being found in ancient remains in western Europe? There is nothing wrong with continuity.

You're misguided if you think that.

[1798]

I think the more accurate estimate is less than 5000 years ago, or 3000 BC. And I'm as puzzled as everyone else as to how a finding that R1b originated in the Steppe could boost anyone's ego. The goal is to understand ancient human migrations, not trying to prove the ethnicity of someone's 200th-great-grandfather.

Why are people getting upset at H and R being found in ancient remains in western Europe? There is nothing wrong with continuity.

[GST]

What I see is some people who don't want R1b in western Europe until 3000 years ago to fit in with their most recent ethnic identity. This is not about science but about ego's.

I think the more accurate estimate is less than 5000 years ago, or 3000 BC. And I'm as puzzled as everyone else as to how a finding that R1b originated in the Steppe could boost anyone's ego. The goal is to understand ancient human migrations, not trying to prove the ethnicity of someone's 200th-great-grandfather.

[1798]

I've already posted in this thread earlier that I would much rather that my paternal line from Sicily originated in Greece and that I was somewhat dismayed in 2005 to learn that my haplogroup is R1b, not J2 or E1b1b. And then I later learned from further research over the years that my particular R1b subclade is mainly northern European.

I posted all this in response to 1798's ridiculous belief that I have some sort of fond connection to the Lombards. It's sort of the same thing you're posting about in regard to his claim that anyone who disagrees with him obviously is yearning to be Yamnaya. Wouldn't that be a great title for a book or movie - "Yearning to Be Yamnaya"! This will be the title of Ciaran's "expose" of the "agenda" of those who deny that the ancestors of modern European R1b were in western Europe before 5,000 years ago and that his Irish paternal line is descended from those ancient European R1b men.

It boggles the mind how some people will create their own elaborate bizzaro world to satisfy their wishful thinking, ignoring all the scientific evidence against it!

All the scientific evidence. We have no Mesolithic nor Neolithic dna from Ireland,Britain and France that I know of at present. R1b is said to have come through Hungary from the Steppe and not one R1b sample was found in all the Hungarian ancient dna tests.

[Subwoofer]

I've already posted in this thread earlier that I would much rather that my paternal line from Sicily originated in Greece and that I was somewhat dismayed in 2005 to learn that my haplogroup is R1b, not J2 or E1b1b. And then I later learned from further research over the years that my particular R1b subclade is mainly northern European.

I posted all this in response to 1798's ridiculous belief that I have some sort of fond connection to the Lombards. It's sort of the same thing you're posting about in regard to his claim that anyone who disagrees with him obviously is yearning to be Yamnaya. Wouldn't that be a great title for a book or movie - "Yearning to Be Yamnaya"! This will be the title of Ciaran's "expose" of the "agenda" of those who deny that the ancestors of modern European R1b were in western Europe before 5,000 years ago and that his Irish paternal line is descended from those ancient European R1b men.

It boggles the mind how some people will create their own elaborate bizzaro world to satisfy their wishful thinking, ignoring all the scientific evidence against it!

I was a little disappointed at being something as pedestrian as R1b when I first became involved with DNA but quickly became very intrigued and now wouldn't trade my haplogroup for any other : )

My father in-law is from Somerset but has an unusual haplogroup for the Isles (E-M84) and is also equally fascinated with how his family ended up in Britain.

At the end of the day we are all trying to get that little glimpse into our past and the story is surly interesting enough by itself a doesn’t deserve to be force it into preconceived corners !!

[MMaddi]

Out of interest what do you believe is driving this 'aching desire' to have Russian Steppes ancestry.

Do you perceive all these posters fretting and beating their breasts in frustration back and in the days when Spain was universally excepted as the R1b refugium ? and then of course the elation when a 'pitiful few' scientists dared suggest an alternative so at long last they could claim this deliciously exotic tundra as the home of their paternal ancestors ????

I've already posted in this thread earlier that I would much rather that my paternal line from Sicily originated in Greece and that I was somewhat dismayed in 2005 to learn that my haplogroup is R1b, not J2 or E1b1b. And then I later learned from further research over the years that my particular R1b subclade is mainly northern European.

I posted all this in response to 1798's ridiculous belief that I have some sort of fond connection to the Lombards. It's sort of the same thing you're posting about in regard to his claim that anyone who disagrees with him obviously is yearning to be Yamnaya. Wouldn't that be a great title for a book or movie - "Yearning to Be Yamnaya"! This will be the title of Ciaran's "expose" of the "agenda" of those who deny that the ancestors of modern European R1b were in western Europe before 5,000 years ago and that his Irish paternal line is descended from those ancient European R1b men.

It boggles the mind how some people will create their own elaborate bizzaro world to satisfy their wishful thinking, ignoring all the scientific evidence against it!

[Subwoofer]

What I see is some people who don't want R1b in western Europe until 3000 years ago to fit in with their most recent ethnic identity. This is not about science but about ego's.

Out of interest what do you believe is driving this 'aching desire' to have Russian Steppes ancestry.

Do you perceive all these posters fretting and beating their breasts in frustration back and in the days when Spain was universally excepted as the R1b refugium ? and then of course the elation when a 'pitiful few' scientists dared suggest an alternative so at long last they could claim this deliciously exotic tundra as the home of their paternal ancestors ????

[1798]

Well, yes. But what you've written is very simplistic. It's almost as if you're thinking that one generation of Yamnaya men traveled 3,000 miles to Iberia! Do you think they had trains or jets?

Think of it this way. Over the course of at least several (probably dozens) generations, the Yamnaya men and their descendants traveled 3,000 miles across Europe. They may have brought some women with them, but they also had children with the native European women along the way of their multi-generation journey.

They would be mixing their Yamnaya autosomal DNA with the DNA of European women. That would dilute the Yamnaya autosomal DNA among their descendants, especially as the descendants were born in later generations and further west.

However, the Yamnaya paternal lines would remain firmly R1b, all the way to Iberia. We already know from ancient remains in the 5,000-7,000 year old period that R1b was scarce or non-existent and that G2 was the dominant haplogroup found in Germany, Italy, France and Spain.

Now do you see how population genetics explains what happened in Iberia?

What I see is some people who don't want R1b in western Europe until 3000 years ago to fit in with their most recent ethnic identity. This is not about science but about ego's.

[MMaddi]

That may be true but they traveled over 3,000 miles of water whereas the so called Yamnaya invasion was over 3,000 miles of land. So there were no females living in all those areas on their way to Iberia.

Well, yes. But what you've written is very simplistic. It's almost as if you're thinking that one generation of Yamnaya men traveled 3,000 miles to Iberia! Do you think they had trains or jets?

Think of it this way. Over the course of at least several (probably dozens) generations, the Yamnaya men and their descendants traveled 3,000 miles across Europe. They may have brought some women with them, but they also had children with the native European women along the way of their multi-generation journey.

They would be mixing their Yamnaya autosomal DNA with the DNA of European women. That would dilute the Yamnaya autosomal DNA among their descendants, especially as the descendants were born in later generations and further west.

However, the Yamnaya paternal lines would remain firmly R1b, all the way to Iberia. We already know from ancient remains in the 5,000-7,000 year old period that R1b was scarce or non-existent and that G2 was the dominant haplogroup found in Germany, Italy, France and Spain.

Now do you see how population genetics explains what happened in Iberia?

[1798]

They probably intermarried/ interbred with whatever local females were available. When they were travelling up the Danube, they probably married Balkan girls. If they were travelling across Poland, they probably married pre-Polish girls. When in what is now Switzerland, they probably married Alpine girls.

R1b M269+ is found among all or most ethnic groups in central, western, southern & northern Europe. There is considerable physical variation among the locales. The R1b men, regardless of where they came from, didn't bring very many women from their original tribe with them, but generally preferred the locals. This is why, within a few generations, the ANE content was diluted to the 10 to 20% range for most.

R1b men in western Europe are, for the most part, descended from the Neolithic & Mesolithic populations that had been in place before the steppe invasion -in every way, EXCEPT for their patriline.

Timothy Peterman

The Z2103 that was found in the Yamnaya probably came from a west to east migration in the first instance. The two Yamanya profiles at gedmatch have some North Sea autosomal dna and some West Asian dna as well so they were descended from immigrants.

[T E Peterman]

They probably intermarried/ interbred with whatever local females were available. When they were travelling up the Danube, they probably married Balkan girls. If they were travelling across Poland, they probably married pre-Polish girls. When in what is now Switzerland, they probably married Alpine girls.

R1b M269+ is found among all or most ethnic groups in central, western, southern & northern Europe. There is considerable physical variation among the locales. The R1b men, regardless of where they came from, didn't bring very many women from their original tribe with them, but generally preferred the locals. This is why, within a few generations, the ANE content was diluted to the 10 to 20% range for most.

R1b men in western Europe are, for the most part, descended from the Neolithic & Mesolithic populations that had been in place before the steppe invasion -in every way, EXCEPT for their patriline.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

This is not just a theory pulled out of thin air. This is exactly what happened in the New World Spanish colonies.

The Spanish, at least initially, sent only men, soldiers and explorers, to take over land from the Native Americans. Since the only women available were Native American and the Spanish had more firepower and other technology than the Native American men, they were the ones having children with Native American women.

This is seen today where Hispanic men generally have a European yDNA haplogroup and a Native American mtDNA haplogroup.

That may be true but they traveled over 3,000 miles of water whereas the so called Yamnaya invasion was over 3,000 miles of land. So there were no females living in all those areas on their way to Iberia.

[MMaddi]

If for some reason, the R1b men didn't happen to bring any women with them when they were travelling & decided to settle down & intermarry a thousand miles from home, they would have been forced to settle for a local woman.

Timothy Peterman

This is not just a theory pulled out of thin air. This is exactly what happened in the New World Spanish colonies.

The Spanish, at least initially, sent only men, soldiers and explorers, to take over land from the Native Americans. Since the only women available were Native American and the Spanish had more firepower and other technology than the Native American men, they were the ones having children with Native American women.

This is seen today where Hispanic men generally have a European yDNA haplogroup and a Native American mtDNA haplogroup.

[T E Peterman]

If for some reason, the R1b men didn't happen to bring any women with them when they were travelling & decided to settle down & intermarry a thousand miles from home, they would have been forced to settle for a local woman.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

Reasons for the overall success of P312 & U106:

Bronze implements & horses

Reasons for the specific geographies:

I suspect that those carrying bronze implements on horseback ran into a barrier (ie, the Atlantic Ocean). The ever westward motion ceased & population numbers began to build. Remember, no matter how high the percentages are, P312 & U106 are comparatively young in those places, at least when measured against G2a & I1. Just look at the yfull dates.

I think it is likely that, within a few generations, most of the women in western Europe were marrying R1b men, instead of G2a or I1. Why?? They knew nothing about haplogroups. The newcomers did bring bronze implements & horses.

Timothy Peterman

I don't think that the 4,500 ybp age for U106 is correct. Our R1b line did not just go from Mesolithic to Bronze Age. I have written about our R1b line in the Neolithic and I got no replies. Why would the women in the Steppe not marry the R1b men?