DNA recovered from underwater British site may rewrite history of farming in Europe

[1798]

http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeolo...arming-europe?

"For the ancient DNA analysis, the team used methods pioneered by paleogeneticist Eske Willerslev of the University of Copenhagen to recover and sequence genetic material left behind in sediments even after the plants that originally contained it have disintegrated. As might be expected, Allaby and his colleagues found DNA from a wide variety of trees and plants known to have populated southern Britain 8000 years ago, including oak, poplar, and beech, along with various grasses and herbs. But the team also got a big surprise: Among the DNA samples were two types of domesticated wheat that originated in the Middle East and that have no wild ancestors in northern Europe. That meant they must have been associated with the original spread of farming from the Middle East, beginning about 10,500 years ago, rather than domesticated locally. Yet many archaeologists assume that by 8000 years ago farming was no further west than the Balkans region and modern Hungary."

[K. L. Adams]

Not good for those locked into the theory of everything was from east to west club.

Good article and thanks for sharing.

[T E Peterman]

Actually, this has no impact on the east to west club.

We have always maintained that Europe had a settlement of modern humans in the Upper Paleolithic; that this population wintered in the Iberian refuge, as well as the north Italian refuge & a Balkan refuge. What we insist is that this population was NOT R1b M269+ (read Manco, Anthony, etc. for more details). We think it is likely that these folks belonged to either the I or G haplogroup, or perhaps an undetermined branch from the CF group.

We also maintain that early farmers from Anatolia crossed into the Balkans prior to 6000 BC & established the Old Europe civilization. Again, we insist that these Neolithic farmers were NOT R1b M269+, but were likely a blend of E1b1b, J1, J2, & G2a. These people spread across Europe, and it was believed that they brought agriculture to the British Isles ca 4000 BC.

This discovery really changes the timeline. All that it suggests is that Neolithic farmers made it to the Isles by 6000 BC, instead of 2,000 years later in 4000 BC. It suggests that the entry from Anatolia may have spread across much of the continent by 6000 BC, instead of gradually crossing over.

The "east to west" club, which refers to the Ancient North Eurasian migration estimated to 2500 BC would really be in trouble if R1b M269+ samples began turning up in Europe from that early. If they do, I, and many others, will modify our interpretation considerably.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

Actually, this has no impact on the east to west club.

We have always maintained that Europe had a settlement of modern humans in the Upper Paleolithic; that this population wintered in the Iberian refuge, as well as the north Italian refuge & a Balkan refuge. What we insist is that this population was NOT R1b M269+ (read Manco, Anthony, etc. for more details). We think it is likely that these folks belonged to either the I or G haplogroup, or perhaps an undetermined branch from the CF group.

We also maintain that early farmers from Anatolia crossed into the Balkans prior to 6000 BC & established the Old Europe civilization. Again, we insist that these Neolithic farmers were NOT R1b M269+, but were likely a blend of E1b1b, J1, J2, & G2a. These people spread across Europe, and it was believed that they brought agriculture to the British Isles ca 4000 BC.

This discovery really changes the timeline. All that it suggests is that Neolithic farmers made it to the Isles by 6000 BC, instead of 2,000 years later in 4000 BC. It suggests that the entry from Anatolia may have spread across much of the continent by 6000 BC, instead of gradually crossing over.

The "east to west" club, which refers to the Ancient North Eurasian migration estimated to 2500 BC would really be in trouble if R1b M269+ samples began turning up in Europe from that early. If they do, I, and many others, will modify our interpretation considerably.

Timothy Peterman

A massive invasion from the Steppe doesn't show up in the archaeological records for Ireland. That's something that you should take on board.

[PNGarrison]

I have just seen the news article at the Science site. They indicated that there were wheat kernels found but no wheat pollen, and they suggested that the wheat was being brought in from the continent as a novelty-specialty sort of thing. It does suggest that farming may have been done further west in Europe at that time than previously thought, but it's not evidence at this point for farming in Britain at this date.

[T E Peterman]

Very good point about grain vs pollen.

To 1798's point, I'm not sure that there ever was a steppe invasion of Ireland. The massive steppe invasion was likely on the continent (ie, Switzerland or France). After a few centuries, some people may have begun to move into Ireland.

Is there any indication one way or the other, regarding the possibility of a massive depopulation of Ireland at any point between say 3000 BC & 1500 BC?

Timothy Peterman

[T E Peterman]

I seem to recall that in The Origins of the Irish, by J. P. Mallory, he was open to the idea of a wave of settlement in this era. He was open to either intrepretation (Atlantic vs steppe origins of R1b).

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

Very good point about grain vs pollen.

To 1798's point, I'm not sure that there ever was a steppe invasion of Ireland. The massive steppe invasion was likely on the continent (ie, Switzerland or France). After a few centuries, some people may have begun to move into Ireland.

Is there any indication one way or the other, regarding the possibility of a massive depopulation of Ireland at any point between say 3000 BC & 1500 BC?

Timothy Peterman

It doesn't take a lot of people to change the language of a country but it takes a lot to change the autosomal dna.

What language did the Neolithic Irish speak?

In the Bronze Age the beaker package in Ireland was different to that of Britain and the continent.

[T E Peterman]

No one knows what language the Neolithic Irish spoke. They didn't leave written records. It might have been similar to Basque, or it may have belonged to a totally unknown language family.

We can be certain that they didn't speak Gaelic or any of the other Indo European languages, since these couldn't have arrived in the Isles until well after the start of the Bronze Age. I say this because PIE itself dates to only about 4000 BC & spread out from either the Pontic Steppe or Anatolia, probably taking hundreds of years to make it to the extremities of the Indo European speaking world.

Even if R1b was in western Europe all along (remember, most descend from two men, Mr. U106 & Mr. P312, who lived around 2900 BC), these two men could have picked up Indo European speech from others coming from the Pontic Steppe or Anatolia. The progeny of U106 & P312 must have been overwhelmed by the newcomers, otherwise why change language? This mental exercise still demonstrates that there must have been a wave of migration by someone from the PIE center, otherwise, we would all be speaking something like Basque today.

Since we know that this wave must have existed, it raises the distinct possibility that the progeny of U106 & P312 were actually part of this wave. Considering that NO R1b M269+ has been found in central or western Europe before the timing of this wave, it makes this possibility all the more likely.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

No one knows what language the Neolithic Irish spoke. They didn't leave written records. It might have been similar to Basque, or it may have belonged to a totally unknown language family.

We can be certain that they didn't speak Gaelic or any of the other Indo European languages, since these couldn't have arrived in the Isles until well after the start of the Bronze Age. I say this because PIE itself dates to only about 4000 BC & spread out from either the Pontic Steppe or Anatolia, probably taking hundreds of years to make it to the extremities of the Indo European speaking world.

Even if R1b was in western Europe all along (remember, most descend from two men, Mr. U106 & Mr. P312, who lived around 2900 BC), these two men could have picked up Indo European speech from others coming from the Pontic Steppe or Anatolia. The progeny of U106 & P312 must have been overwhelmed by the newcomers, otherwise why change language? This mental exercise still demonstrates that there must have been a wave of migration by someone from the PIE center, otherwise, we would all be speaking something like Basque today.

Since we know that this wave must have existed, it raises the distinct possibility that the progeny of U106 & P312 were actually part of this wave. Considering that NO R1b M269+ has been found in central or western Europe before the timing of this wave, it makes this possibility all the more likely.

Timothy Peterman

There is no evidence to show that the descendants of the Mesolithic and Neolithic peoples of Ireland were wiped out or replaced during the Bronze Age.

[1798]

Not good for those locked into the theory of everything was from east to west club.

Good article and thanks for sharing.

How did the Irish and the Iberians end up with 80% R1b male populations? The Steppe is awash with R1a.

[K. L. Adams]

Best educated guess.

How did the Irish and the Iberians end up with 80% R1b male populations? The Steppe is awash with R1a.

A lot of educated guesses on how one (1) of the world population, major race, namely white/Caucasian moved about the European continent.

I do find it interesting, despite invasions and climate changes how well the major races, that share similar culture and physical traits, still reside within there own ancient homelands.

Yes, Asians have migrated/invaded many new lands,the same as other races, but Asians has also remained within there original geographical ancient location.

So it is only an educated guess by some, based on what few ancient dna samples, current dna populations/concentrations, along with, perhaps a piece of a ancient jawbone or even an arrow head to determine the movements of ancient people and draw nice looking maps.

I believe an open mind is required, with friendly debate, knowing that all we can put forward is our best educated guess.

[MMaddi]

Yes, Asians have migrated/invaded many new lands,the same as other races, but Asians has also remained within there original geographical ancient location.

It sounds like you're not aware that the latest scientific evidence available to population geneticists indicates that haplogroup P, "father" of Q and R originated deep within East Asia. This study - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2014106a.html - which was published last year reports on new knowledge about the phylogeny of Haplogroup K.

The new phylogeny indicates that all the subclades of K2b1 are found today in East Asia and Australia. However, K2b2, otherwise known as haplogroup P and it subclades, is not mainly found among modern East Asian populations. The abstract notes, "Interestingly, the monophyletic group formed by haplogroups R and Q, which make up the majority of paternal lineages in Europe, Central Asia and the Americas, represents the only subclade with K2b that is not geographically restricted to Southeast Asia and Oceania. Estimates of the interval times for the branching events between M9 and P295 point to an initial rapid diversification process of K-M526 that likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q."

So, the grandfather (K) and father (P) of haplogroup R are distinctly Asian, in fact East Asian, not European. Even Mal'ta boy, whose 24,000 year old remains were tested and found to be R1, lived in eastern Siberia, near Mongolia.

This hardly sounds to me like the Asian "race" "remained within there [sic] original geographical ancient location." Humans have been migrating since they left Africa tens of thousands of years ago. Attempts to deny this and insist that the modern day population of any geographical area has been there forever is just folly.

[1798]

A lot of educated guesses on how one (1) of the world population, major race, namely white/Caucasian moved about the European continent.

I do find it interesting, despite invasions and climate changes how well the major races, that share similar culture and physical traits, still reside within there own ancient homelands.

Yes, Asians have migrated/invaded many new lands,the same as other races, but Asians has also remained within there original geographical ancient location.

So it is only an educated guess by some, based on what few ancient dna samples, current dna populations/concentrations, along with, perhaps a piece of a ancient jawbone or even an arrow head to determine the movements of ancient people and draw nice looking maps.

I believe an open mind is required, with friendly debate, knowing that all we can put forward is our best educated guess.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ma...cide-1.1426197

"Ancient DNA testing has been ongoing in Ireland for the last two years by Bradley in Trinity and Prof Ron Pinhasi in the UCD School of Archaeology, who is involved with a large project of ancient DNA testing throughout Europe.
“I don’t know of any time in history where a culture came in and completely wiped out another,” says Pinhasi. “You don’t see total wipeouts, unless there is reason for a population to become extinct, like massive climate change. But we have no reason to believe Bronze Age farmers became extinct this way.
“Sure there were a lot of population movements and mixing going on at this time. That’s why modern people don’t look like neolithic people, genetically speaking, but it would have had minimal impact on the gene pool” he says. “You’re not going to have hundreds of thousands of people suddenly coming from Spain but you would definitely have had smaller groups coming in boats. Plus there’s no archeological proof of any massive warfare or battles here at that time.”
The mapping out of ancient genetics of populations from 45,000BC to the Bronze Age, now under way, may very possibly reveal many misconceptions about our past."

[1798]

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ma...cide-1.1426197

"Ancient DNA testing has been ongoing in Ireland for the last two years by Bradley in Trinity and Prof Ron Pinhasi in the UCD School of Archaeology, who is involved with a large project of ancient DNA testing throughout Europe.
“I don’t know of any time in history where a culture came in and completely wiped out another,” says Pinhasi. “You don’t see total wipeouts, unless there is reason for a population to become extinct, like massive climate change. But we have no reason to believe Bronze Age farmers became extinct this way.
“Sure there were a lot of population movements and mixing going on at this time. That’s why modern people don’t look like neolithic people, genetically speaking, but it would have had minimal impact on the gene pool” he says. “You’re not going to have hundreds of thousands of people suddenly coming from Spain but you would definitely have had smaller groups coming in boats. Plus there’s no archeological proof of any massive warfare or battles here at that time.”
The mapping out of ancient genetics of populations from 45,000BC to the Bronze Age, now under way, may very possibly reveal many misconceptions about our past."

The fact that Irish people are 80% R1b is evidence enough of an ancient presence in the island.