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  • #16
    Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
    There are some good maps at this site that show the actual distributions of these autosomal mixes:


    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso...unter-Gatherer
    The map of WHG is a joke. It is no surprise coming from Eupedia.

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    • #17
      Show me an alternative map; one that comes from a more credible source than eupedia.

      Timothy Peterman

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      • #18
        Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
        Show me an alternative map; one that comes from a more credible source than eupedia.

        Timothy Peterman
        This map was created using Lochsbour as a proxy for WHG but Lochsbour was Estonian. Estonia is not in western Europe.

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        • #19
          So where is your map? Who is to say that Lochsbour isn't a proxy for WHG across the whole region?

          I know that you are trying to debunk the theory that central & western Europe were invaded by bronze age horsemen from the steppe in ca 2500 BC, who brought R1b, Ancient North Eurasian & Indo European languages to Europe.

          If you have an alternative theory, you need to give us reasons for why it is better, coupled with solid evidence. So far, I have seen you attack the steppe interpretation over and over, without offering us any reason to go back to the old notion that was in vogue a decade or more ago, when genetic information was a lot more sparse.

          Timothy Peterman

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          • #20
            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
            This map was created using Lochsbour as a proxy for WHG but Lochsbour was Estonian. Estonia is not in western Europe.
            Estonia is about 2,000 km from where Loschbour man was found.
            Last edited by Sarmat; 24 February 2015, 08:09 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
              So where is your map? Who is to say that Lochsbour isn't a proxy for WHG across the whole region?

              I know that you are trying to debunk the theory that central & western Europe were invaded by bronze age horsemen from the steppe in ca 2500 BC, who brought R1b, Ancient North Eurasian & Indo European languages to Europe.

              If you have an alternative theory, you need to give us reasons for why it is better, coupled with solid evidence. So far, I have seen you attack the steppe interpretation over and over, without offering us any reason to go back to the old notion that was in vogue a decade or more ago, when genetic information was a lot more sparse.

              Timothy Peterman
              You can look at Lochsbour's profile at Gedmatch, F999917.

              There is no archaeological evidence of a massive invasion of Ireland in the Bronze Age from the Steppe.

              A few Z2103 is not evidence since that subgroup is scarce in Ireland.

              Motala 12 F999918 and the F999924 are evidence that WHG and ANE were both in north western Europe before 4,500 ybp.

              The majority of R1b in Ireland are L21 and I don't see any evidence for a Steppe origin. France is the most likely place of origin.

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              • #22
                To find out which type of autosomal dna was in western Europe during the Mesolithic there would need to be some tests from Wales or Ireland on ancient remains. I think that Ireland has very few Mesolithic samples that would yield enough dna from that period.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                  So where is your map? Who is to say that Lochsbour isn't a proxy for WHG across the whole region?

                  I know that you are trying to debunk the theory that central & western Europe were invaded by bronze age horsemen from the steppe in ca 2500 BC, who brought R1b, Ancient North Eurasian & Indo European languages to Europe.

                  If you have an alternative theory, you need to give us reasons for why it is better, coupled with solid evidence. So far, I have seen you attack the steppe interpretation over and over, without offering us any reason to go back to the old notion that was in vogue a decade or more ago, when genetic information was a lot more sparse.

                  Timothy Peterman
                  When you find WHG outside of western Europe then you know that it was brought there from western Europe not the other way around. The Yamnaya didn't bring WHG into western Europe.

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                  • #24
                    How do you know that? WHG was merely a label created to differentiate between Early Neolithic Farmer from Anatolia DNA, versus the hunter gatherer content. The Western part probably dates to a time when people thought R1b wintered the last Ice Age in Iberia.

                    Timothy Peterman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                      How do you know that? WHG was merely a label created to differentiate between Early Neolithic Farmer from Anatolia DNA, versus the hunter gatherer content. The Western part probably dates to a time when people thought R1b wintered the last Ice Age in Iberia.

                      Timothy Peterman
                      I believe that the 64% Western European Hunter Gatherer dna that I have is exactly that WHG. I have 14% ENF which is farmer dna. The other 17% ANE is from before the Ice Age people.

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                      • #26
                        I believe that ANE comes from this era.

                        Wiki
                        "Gravettian culture is a phase (c. 32,000–22,000 ya) of the European Upper Paleolithic that is characterized by a stone-tool industry with small pointed blades used for big-game hunting (bison, horse, reindeer and mammoth). People in the Gravettian period used nets to hunt small game. For more information on hunting, see Animal Usage in the Gravettian.

                        It is divided into two regional groups: the western Gravettian, mostly known from cave sites in France, and the eastern Gravettian, with open sites of specialized mammoth hunters on the plains of central Europe and Russia such as the derivative Pavlovian culture."

                        "Modern human settlement in Ukraine and its vicinity dates back to 32,000 BC, with evidence of the Gravettian culture in the Crimean Mountains.[28][29] By 4,500 BC, the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture flourished in a wide area that included parts of modern Ukraine including Trypillia and the entire Dnieper-Dniester region. During the Iron Age, the land was inhabited by Cimmerians, Scythians, and Sarmatians.[30] Between 700 BC and 200 BC it was part of the Scythian Kingdom, or Scythia."

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