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  • Z2103

    I haven't seen any posts in the last few years that suggested that Z2103 was a Celtic group. Now that a few have been found in the Yamnaya that has changed. No doubt,the make it up as they go long clan will find a way of including them.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I haven't seen any posts in the last few years that suggested that Z2103 was a Celtic group. Now that a few have been found in the Yamnaya that has changed. No doubt,the make it up as they go long clan will find a way of including them.
    What makes more sense, adjusting the hypothesis as more evidence accumulates, or assuming that you know what the answer has to be independent of any evidence?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by PNGarrison View Post
      What makes more sense, adjusting the hypothesis as more evidence accumulates, or assuming that you know what the answer has to be independent of any evidence?
      There is no evidence that there was a massive Steppe invasion of western Europe. It is based on assumptions. If the scientists had found L51 there it still does not prove that the Steppe was the place of origin.

      Linking a single subhaplogroup to the PIE is not very scientific.

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      • #4
        One of the fascinating things that I have found in my Robinson lineage (which is Z2103) is that my uncle's patriline departs from all others characteristic of the Balkans or Anatolia over 4500 years ago (assuming 135 years per generation). He does have a match after this, who is English or western European (the MRCA is some 1500 years ago +-).

        This tells me that my uncle's patriline parted company with all of his Balkan or Anatolian relatives prior to 2500 BC & embarked on a journey that led the family to the British Isles.

        To me, this looks like he joined his L51 distant cousins on the journey to central & western Europe. In my eyes, this discovery of mine validates the whole migration sequence of R1b L51+.

        Timothy Peterman

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        • #5
          Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
          One of the fascinating things that I have found in my Robinson lineage (which is Z2103) is that my uncle's patriline departs from all others characteristic of the Balkans or Anatolia over 4500 years ago (assuming 135 years per generation). He does have a match after this, who is English or western European (the MRCA is some 1500 years ago +-).

          This tells me that my uncle's patriline parted company with all of his Balkan or Anatolian relatives prior to 2500 BC & embarked on a journey that led the family to the British Isles.

          To me, this looks like he joined his L51 distant cousins on the journey to central & western Europe. In my eyes, this discovery of mine validates the whole migration sequence of R1b L51+.

          Timothy Peterman
          Finding WHG among the Yamnaya R1b means that it got there from western Europe.

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          • #6
            My understanding is that WHG can be found over all of Europe, plus the Near East. It may have extended all the way to the Pontic Steppe.

            Do you have a current map that shows the distribution of WHG?

            Timothy Peterman

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            • #7
              Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
              My understanding is that WHG can be found over all of Europe, plus the Near East. It may have extended all the way to the Pontic Steppe.

              Do you have a current map that shows the distribution of WHG?

              Timothy Peterman
              I don't. If it can be found in the Steppe then it got there from western Europe and that is why the Yamnaya had it. It would be ludicrous for anyone to suggest it originated there.

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              • #8
                WHG could have originated in the Near East in the Upper Paleolithic & spread north & west with the G & I haplogroups.

                Some call it WHG/ UHG. The U stands for Unknown.

                Western Europe should be looked at as a place that was receving incoming gene flow. Western Europe was probably NOT, at least during prehistoric times, the origination point on gene flow.

                This isn't to say that it was impossible for Western Europe to be the source of gene flow; it just doesn't look like it actually happened, at least not on a grand scale.

                Timothy Peterman

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                  WHG could have originated in the Near East in the Upper Paleolithic & spread north & west with the G & I haplogroups.

                  Some call it WHG/ UHG. The U stands for Unknown.

                  Western Europe should be looked at as a place that was receving incoming gene flow. Western Europe was probably NOT, at least during prehistoric times, the origination point on gene flow.

                  This isn't to say that it was impossible for Western Europe to be the source of gene flow; it just doesn't look like it actually happened, at least not on a grand scale.

                  Timothy Peterman
                  Then it would not be WHG. WHG should originate in western Europe.

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                  • #10
                    1798, Let me get this clear ... you would be ok if the name of WHG was changed to no longer include the word Western? I'm not following your logic ...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MikeP View Post
                      1798, Let me get this clear ... you would be ok if the name of WHG was changed to no longer include the word Western? I'm not following your logic ...
                      How could WHG autosomal dna originate in eastern Europe? If my autosomal dna originated in eastern Europe then it should be EHG. It has been suggested many times that our ancestors came from the east thousands of years before present but we in western Europe have our own specific autosomal dna. That dna is known as ANE and WHG.

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                      • #12
                        Most of the discussion here seems to have been about y-dna, such as the origin of R1b, not autosomal. So I'm still confused ...

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MikeP View Post
                          Most of the discussion here seems to have been about y-dna, such as the origin of R1b, not autosomal. So I'm still confused ...
                          When people move they don't usually leave their autosomal dna behind them and just take their "Y".

                          Z2103 is not found in the majority of western Europeans.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                            How could WHG autosomal dna originate in eastern Europe? If my autosomal dna originated in eastern Europe then it should be EHG. It has been suggested many times that our ancestors came from the east thousands of years before present but we in western Europe have our own specific autosomal dna. That dna is known as ANE and WHG.
                            Dude. Man. Dudeman. You're blowin' my mind, man.

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                            • #15
                              There are some good maps at this site that show the actual distributions of these autosomal mixes:


                              http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso...unter-Gatherer

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