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Eurogenes K13 and K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
    Because he was a hunter gatherer living in Western Europe before Middle Eastern farmers and others entered the area ??

    Of course that's just a guess : )
    He seemed to be 50% Lithuanian so we will need a lot more ancient samples from western Europe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Subwoofer
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    How can Lochsbour be a proxy for WHG?
    Because he was a hunter gatherer living in Western Europe before Middle Eastern farmers and others entered the area ??

    Of course that's just a guess : )

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Lochsbour F999918 K15
    # Population Percent
    1 North_Sea 34.51
    2 Baltic 33.51
    3 Atlantic 23.86
    4 Eastern_Euro 7.33
    1 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish + Swedish @ 14.118155

    The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners.

    How can Lochsbour be a proxy for WHG?

    Leave a comment:


  • Subwoofer
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I have read this already but I don't agree with the author even though I think that he is a brainy guy.
    Suggesting you consider everybody else you disagree with as cognitively challenged ? : )

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
    Jean Manco posted a link to this article on another forum which you might find interesting.

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/almost-all-b...the-neolithic/
    I have read this already but I don't agree with the author even though I think that he is a brainy guy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Finn
    replied
    I'm Finnish with ancestry mostly from Eastern and Southern Finland.

    K13
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 48.95
    2 North_Atlantic 31.05
    3 Siberian 7.37
    4 West_Med 6.16
    5 West_Asian 2.7
    6 Amerindian 2.55
    7 Red_Sea 0.63
    8 Northeast_African 0.43
    9 Oceanian 0.17

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 East_Finnish @ 3.535050
    2 Finnish @ 4.486194
    3 Estonian @ 4.971862
    4 Kargopol_Russian @ 7.606990
    5 Belorussian @ 8.667800
    6 Estonian_Polish @ 8.832209
    7 Lithuanian @ 9.041557
    8 Russian_Smolensk @ 9.474498
    9 Southwest_Finnish @ 9.851964
    10 Polish @ 10.314017
    11 Southwest_Russian @ 11.012150
    12 Erzya @ 11.726254
    13 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 12.128807
    14 Ukrainian @ 12.620487
    15 South_Polish @ 13.198195
    16 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 13.697415
    17 La_Brana-1 @ 16.385817
    18 North_Swedish @ 19.169638
    19 Croatian @ 20.517040
    20 East_German @ 22.426914

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% East_Finnish +50% Estonian @ 2.958694


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% East_Finnish +25% Kargopol_Russian +25% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.679686


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 East_Finnish + Estonian + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.500657
    2 East_Finnish + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.565299
    3 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.679686
    4 East_Finnish + Erzya + Estonian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.732254
    5 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.732422
    6 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Erzya + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.746639
    7 Estonian + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.757597
    8 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.775665
    9 East_Finnish + Erzya + Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.796697
    10 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Polish @ 2.851151
    11 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian @ 2.863202
    12 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Finnish @ 2.877655
    13 Erzya + Finnish + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.890028
    14 East_Finnish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.890738
    15 Erzya + Estonian + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.894039
    16 Finnish + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.909785
    17 East_Finnish + Erzya + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.923563
    18 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Estonian @ 2.958694
    19 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + Finnish @ 2.982287
    20 East_Finnish + Erzya + Estonian + Finnish @ 3.011775


    K15
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Eastern_Euro 26.59
    2 North_Sea 24.15
    3 Baltic 20.1
    4 Atlantic 17.73
    5 Siberian 5.91
    6 West_Med 3.33
    7 Amerindian 2.2

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 East_Finnish @ 4.872878
    2 Kargopol_Russian @ 9.313577
    3 Finnish @ 9.846393
    4 Southwest_Finnish @ 11.156616
    5 Estonian @ 12.646970
    6 Polish @ 12.967704
    7 Erzya @ 13.833607
    8 Southwest_Russian @ 14.320647
    9 Ukrainian @ 14.359293
    10 South_Polish @ 14.423973
    11 Estonian_Polish @ 14.690531
    12 Russian_Smolensk @ 15.275518
    13 Belorussian @ 15.519096
    14 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 15.555890
    15 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 15.982323
    16 La_Brana-1 @ 17.661135
    17 East_German @ 18.081631
    18 North_Swedish @ 18.213345
    19 Croatian @ 18.459110
    20 Hungarian @ 18.681910

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% East_Finnish +50% East_Finnish @ 4.872878


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% East_Finnish +25% East_Finnish +25% East_Finnish @ 4.872878


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.409276
    2 Estonian_Polish + Mari + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.476406
    3 Chuvash + Estonian_Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.553254
    4 Chuvash + Estonian + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.572073
    5 Mari + Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.582173
    6 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.582550
    7 Estonian_Polish + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.631569
    8 Estonian + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.644938
    9 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + North_Swedish @ 4.649968
    10 Chuvash + Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.675759
    11 Chuvash + Estonian_Polish + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.687123
    12 Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Mari + West_Scottish @ 4.707956
    13 Chuvash + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + West_Scottish @ 4.713418
    14 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.715793
    15 Chuvash + Danish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian @ 4.743880
    16 Belorussian + Mari + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.751878
    17 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + Norwegian @ 4.774970
    18 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Polish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.792444
    19 Estonian_Polish + Kargopol_Russian + Mari + West_Norwegian @ 4.801421
    20 Danish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Mari @ 4.803503

    Leave a comment:


  • Subwoofer
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    Wiki;
    "Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those that, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them."
    Jean Manco posted a link to this article on another forum which you might find interesting.

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/almost-all-b...the-neolithic/

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Wiki;
    "Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those that, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them."

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
    How would you define indigenous ? I think it highly unlikely there is a modern West European population that is so isolated that it contains no or little EEF & ANE, could you give me an example ?

    The problem with Sykes' mtDNA test on the Red Lady was methodology, but it was the early days for such tests so it's understandable that they hadn't ironed out all the potential hiccups and of course significant advances have been made in the field in recent years.

    As I said it doesn't look too unreasonable they'll get a call for H with the El Miron sample once they conduct a thorough examination, at the moment they are relying on an enzyme that doesn't stick to H mtDNA (from what I can gather) but of course if the DNA is damaged in that region it won't stick to it anyway and that sample was reported as poor.
    That is a good question.

    The 17% ANE that I have is from the very distant past.

    The ENF were descended from a Mesolithic population. Who were they?

    Leave a comment:


  • Subwoofer
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    It is obvious to me that you don't accept that some western Europeans are indigenous.

    The two ancient remains were covered with red ochre and that shows that there was a link between these HG peoples.


    Did Sykes not get the autosomal dna from the "Red Lady of Paviland's" tooth? Is it not true that MTDNA will survive in the teeth? So,why would it be iffy?

    There is no reason that the Spanish test was wrong. The fact that 40% of females in western Europe are H is no surprise to me.
    How would you define indigenous ? I think it highly unlikely there is a modern West European population that is so isolated that it contains no or little EEF & ANE, could you give me an example ?

    The problem with Sykes' mtDNA test on the Red Lady was methodology, but it was the early days for such tests so it's understandable that they hadn't ironed out all the potential hiccups and of course significant advances have been made in the field in recent years.

    As I said it doesn't look too unreasonable they'll get a call for H with the El Miron sample once they conduct a thorough examination, at the moment they are relying on an enzyme that doesn't stick to H mtDNA (from what I can gather) but of course if the DNA is damaged in that region it won't stick to it anyway and that sample was reported as poor.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by acollette49 View Post
    Thanks for the explanation. I do have some Portuguese, but it is literally 4 people in the early 1600s. I also have a pretty good idea of where my French ancestors are from, so everything except the Spanish makes sense in terms of migration and conquest.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 192971 View Post
    The 4-Ancestors Oracle is a stupid way to fit population percent (like "North_Sea" etc) data to the averages of current populations for many people. Of course, if not all of your (great)grandparents are from the same population, then 4-Ancestors Oracle's coarse 25% population chunks may fit adequately to your data.

    For myself (known roots widely and deeply West-Finnish, with some East-Finnish) the plain Oracle gives better results.

    1 Southwest_Finnish 6.19
    2 Finnish 8.28
    3 East_Finnish 8.9
    4 Polish 12.41
    5 North_Swedish 12.67

    1 90.8% Southwest_Finnish + 9.2% Mari @5.23
    2 89.5% Southwest_Finnish + 10.5% Chuvash @5.34
    3 95.8% Southwest_Finnish + 4.2% Selkup @5.49
    4 83.2% East_Finnish + 16.8% French_Basque @5.5

    Already there can be seen that compared to the average "Southwest_Finnish" I am more eastern (Mari, Chuvash, Selkup), but compared to the average "East_Finnish" I am more western (French_Basque). The third composition is already clearly an artifact, and the fourth even more.

    For comparison, my 4-Ancestors Oracle four population fitting results:
    1 East_Finnish + Irish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @6.414351
    2 East_Finnish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @6.416669
    3 Irish + Irish + Lithuanian + Mari @6.454047
    4 Irish + Lithuanian + Mari + West_Scottish @6.472548
    ...
    13 East_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 6.711174

    The best fit of those (~6.41) is, due to the coarse fitting, more distant than the best fit by plain Oracle (5.23). Here it can also be seen that the 25% chunks force the population components to combine wildly, so that the third and fourth compositions do not even recognize any Finnish component in me, and still the Irish/West_Scottish artifact component manages to enter all the top four fits.
    Well said.
    AS you can see on gedmatch, there has been an array of admixture calculators over the years. Great work has gone into producing these but like other areas of genetic genealogy, there is further work to do yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
    Now that is odd that the one academic you think worthy is a pop scientist who's conclusions fit neatly with your ideal whist all others are cast into the bin : )

    As it happens the finding was iffy but it's not the only one, a lot of early aMtDNA is suspect for one reason or another.

    The Spanish mtDNA you mentioned does look promising but more rigorous testing is needed, they are apparently on the way, and hopefully some sort of age for the remains in order to make the results useful.
    It is obvious to me that you don't accept that some western Europeans are indigenous.

    The two ancient remains were covered with red ochre and that shows that there was a link between these HG peoples.


    Did Sykes not get the autosomal dna from the "Red Lady of Paviland's" tooth? Is it not true that MTDNA will survive in the teeth? So,why would it be iffy?

    There is no reason that the Spanish test was wrong. The fact that 40% of females in western Europe are H is no surprise to me.
    Last edited by 1798; 14 April 2015, 03:45 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Subwoofer
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I think that Prof. Sykes did say that he found Mtdna H in the dna of "Red lady of Paviland". Mtdna H was found in the dna of another ancient red lady from El Miron. Was he wrong? Academics can get it right some of the time.


    That would be progress.
    Now that is odd that the one academic you think worthy is a pop scientist who's conclusions fit neatly with your ideal whist all others are cast into the bin : )

    As it happens the finding was iffy but it's not the only one, a lot of early aMtDNA is suspect for one reason or another.

    The Spanish mtDNA you mentioned does look promising but more rigorous testing is needed, they are apparently on the way, and hopefully some sort of age for the remains in order to make the results useful.
    Last edited by Subwoofer; 14 April 2015, 01:01 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • acollette49
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    Gedmatch admixture calculators use an algorithm to extrapolate what percentage of genetic groupings i.e. North Sea, Atlantic etc you have in your autosomal DNA. The algorithm then compares your percentage results for each group and compares them with "averages" taken from a set of sample populations. This then produces an approximation of which population(s) your results are most similar to.

    You will notice that your top result is "French @ 5.702926"

    This software provides a "best fit" based on the information from the sample populations. These calculators may work for some people and not others, so don't be too alarmed just yet.

    It could be that you have some Spanish/Portuguese/Norwegian ancestry in your background or it may be that these are the populations that the admixture calculator thinks your results are "most similar too". This process does have limitations but it is worth considering how our ancestry fits into history.

    Considering French history, migrations, wars, invasions and shifting borders or numerous French/Frankish duchies, you could possibly be that you have some of these populations in your genetic ancestry. Confirming these results with genealogical records may be difficult however.

    I hope this helps.
    Thanks for the explanation. I do have some Portuguese, but it is literally 4 people in the early 1600s. I also have a pretty good idea of where my French ancestors are from, so everything except the Spanish makes sense in terms of migration and conquest.

    Leave a comment:

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