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Eurogenes K13 and K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

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  • Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
    Oh right, the present day Lithuanian people have remained in place since the Mesolithic period, so it's entirely accurate on your part to describe the ancient DNA results from Lochsbour as "50% Lithuanian." NOT!

    That's my snarky way of stating the same objection as N21163 posted just before this post. Can you tell me why you even think we need DNA from ancient remains if you think that present day populations can be used as a reference sample for the admixture of ancient populations??!! Something like a time machine or time reversal that makes modern populations appropriate to describe more ancient ones?

    Your circular reasoning and lack of scientific rigor in your thinking continue to boggle my mind. Everything is self-evident to you and all data confirms your firmly held beliefs, although it really confirms the opposite in most cases.
    So what you are saying is that the whole modern Lithuanian population came from western Europe or 50% of the modern western European population came from Lithuania. It is you that is not able to understand the calculator results and you are not on your own in that respect. It seems to me that even those who create the calculators can't even understand them.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      It seems to me that even those who create the calculators can't even understand them.
      Fairplay we really get our money's worth out of you. Nice to have a chuckle first thing Monday morning, thanks : )))

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
        Fairplay we really get our money's worth out of you. Nice to have a chuckle first thing Monday morning, thanks : )))
        If you want a really good laugh you could read some of the eurogene's and anthrogenica blog posts.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          If you want a really good laugh you could read some of the eurogene's and anthrogenica blog posts.
          Oh there are jokers on all forums that's for sure. I don't tend to bother with eurogene's that much but anthrogenica has a wide range of talent going all the way up to true experts but has a lot of knowledgeable and enthusiastic amateurs, unfortunately it's suffering from undue attention of trolls at the moment who seem to have crept out from under their bridges in an effort to create noise and confusion after the Haak paper.

          That said for giggles this thread is heard to beat : )

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
            If you want a really good laugh you could read some of the eurogene's and anthrogenica blog posts.
            Translation from 1798-speak: The posters at those forums don't agree with my firmly held (but agenda-driven) beliefs. Therefore, I laugh at them.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
              Oh there are jokers on all forums that's for sure. I don't tend to bother with eurogene's that much but anthrogenica has a wide range of talent going all the way up to true experts but has a lot of knowledgeable and enthusiastic amateurs, unfortunately it's suffering from undue attention of trolls at the moment who seem to have crept out from under their bridges in an effort to create noise and confusion after the Haak paper.

              That said for giggles this thread is heard to beat : )
              If you call people names that don't agree with your theory then they have won.


              Mal'ta Boy "R" was dark skinned.

              "Blood of the Celts" is one thread that I laugh at because there are those writing stuff who haven't a clue about the Celts.
              Last edited by 1798; 20 April 2015, 04:35 PM.

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              • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                So what you are saying is that the whole modern Lithuanian population came from western Europe or 50% of the modern western European population came from Lithuania.
                He wasn't talking about either one of these points.
                Either you were trying to be funny (and it fell flat) or you did not pick up on the sarcasm. Either way you missed the point.

                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                It is you that is not able to understand the calculator results and you are not on your own in that respect. It seems to me that even those who create the calculators can't even understand them.
                Ok I'll play...

                What is it that you think you know about these calculators that the calculator creators don't?

                You seem to believe that because one calculator fits your ancestry that it works for everyone else. It doesn't work like that.

                To paraphrase one of MMaddi's previous questions that wasn't addressed:

                What is the point of getting ancient DNA if you think that present day sample populations can accurately demonstrate the admixture of ancient populations?

                Using Lochsbour as a sample and comparing it to modern day Lithuanians will tell you far more than trying to do it the other way around.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                  If you call people names that don't agree with your theory then they have won.


                  Mal'ta Boy "R" was dark skinned.

                  "Blood of the Celts" is one thread that I laugh at because there are those writing stuff who haven't a clue about the Celts.
                  Please elaborate.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by N21163 View Post
                    He wasn't talking about either one of these points.
                    Either you were trying to be funny (and it fell flat) or you did not pick up on the sarcasm. Either way you missed the point.



                    Ok I'll play...

                    What is it that you think you know about these calculators that the calculator creators don't?

                    You seem to believe that because one calculator fits your ancestry that it works for everyone else. It doesn't work like that.

                    To paraphrase one of MMaddi's previous questions that wasn't addressed:

                    What is the point of getting ancient DNA if you think that present day sample populations can accurately demonstrate the admixture of ancient populations?

                    Using Lochsbour as a sample and comparing it to modern day Lithuanians will tell you far more than trying to do it the other way around.
                    The fact that Hinxton 4 from 2000 ybp was L21 a few posters jumped on the bandwagon. If they are so convinced that they are also Celts why did not post their gedmatch autosomal results to show that they are close to H4?
                    Last edited by 1798; 20 April 2015, 05:33 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                      The fact that Hinxton 4 from 2000 ybp was L21 a few posters jumped on the bandwagon. If they are so convinced that they are also Celts why did not post their gedmatch autosomal results to show that they are close to H4?
                      What has any of this got to do with any of the questions in my previous post?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                        If you call people names that don't agree with your theory then they have won.


                        Mal'ta Boy "R" was dark skinned.

                        "Blood of the Celts" is one thread that I laugh at because there are those writing stuff who haven't a clue about the Celts.
                        As a general rule I don't get involved with arguments with trolls but Anthrogenica has a very low tolerance for that kind of behavior so they tend to get band quite quickly, as I'm sure you know : )

                        BTW The fact that Mal'ta boys skin was dark is not a winning argument in any shape or form.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                          As a general rule I don't get involved with arguments with trolls but Anthrogenica has a very low tolerance for that kind of behavior so they tend to get band quite quickly, as I'm sure you know : )

                          BTW The fact that Mal'ta boys skin was dark is not a winning argument in any shape or form.
                          Academics in Ireland don't know who exactly the Celts where or when they first came to Ireland. And then someone who is not from Ireland writes that they know the type of blood the Celts had.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by N21163 View Post
                            He wasn't talking about either one of these points.
                            Either you were trying to be funny (and it fell flat) or you did not pick up on the sarcasm. Either way you missed the point.



                            Ok I'll play...

                            What is it that you think you know about these calculators that the calculator creators don't?

                            You seem to believe that because one calculator fits your ancestry that it works for everyone else. It doesn't work like that.

                            To paraphrase one of MMaddi's previous questions that wasn't addressed:

                            What is the point of getting ancient DNA if you think that present day sample populations can accurately demonstrate the admixture of ancient populations?

                            Using Lochsbour as a sample and comparing it to modern day Lithuanians will tell you far more than trying to do it the other way around.

                            Clovis F999919 K15
                            Population
                            North_Sea 0.95%
                            Atlantic 0.14%
                            Baltic 0.08%
                            Eastern_Euro 3.52%
                            West_Med -
                            West_Asian -
                            East_Med -
                            Red_Sea -
                            South_Asian -
                            Southeast_Asian 1.63%
                            Siberian 4.58%
                            Amerindian 88.51%
                            Oceanian 0.34%
                            Northeast_African 0.26%
                            Sub-Saharan -

                            1 Anzick-1 + Pima + Pima + Pima @ 2.099648

                            Clovis was a NA. Is this not correct? K15 looks okay to me but it may need a little tweaking.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                              Clovis F999919 K15
                              Population
                              North_Sea 0.95%
                              Atlantic 0.14%
                              Baltic 0.08%
                              Eastern_Euro 3.52%
                              West_Med -
                              West_Asian -
                              East_Med -
                              Red_Sea -
                              South_Asian -
                              Southeast_Asian 1.63%
                              Siberian 4.58%
                              Amerindian 88.51%
                              Oceanian 0.34%
                              Northeast_African 0.26%
                              Sub-Saharan -

                              1 Anzick-1 + Pima + Pima + Pima @ 2.099648

                              Clovis was a NA. Is this not correct? K15 looks okay to me but it may need a little tweaking.
                              I get the impression you do not care to read through long posts, but anyway.

                              I don't recall mentioning the Clovis sample before, did you mention it and I didn't respond?
                              Didn't think so.

                              The Clovis sample is 12,500 years old and it has been established that some Native American groups descend from the peoples that this sample belongs to. No one directly descends from this sample as it belongs to an infant male.
                              Agreed so far?

                              I thank you for including the 4 population matches from the gedmatch results.
                              "Anzick-1" refers to the "Clovis" sample itself, and anyone can search this on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzick-1

                              The sample was named after the family who resided on the land, in Montana USA, where it was discovered. Sarah Anzick (of the Anzick family) is a Molecular Biologist who decoded the sample and assisted in reburial of it's remains: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...-ancient-bones

                              Looking at the 4 population approximation you porvided:

                              1 Anzick-1 + Pima + Pima + Pima @ 2.099648

                              the gedmatch calculator is stating the sample descends from itself (??) (in the first population) as there is no other sample population to compare it to. Agreed?

                              This is an example of a "best fit" approach.

                              The next population referenced is "Pima". The Pima people come from regions in Arizona, the opposite end of what is now the USA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pima_people

                              Again what the gedmatch calculator has done is found the next closest "best fit" population, the closest match based on the sample populations provided.

                              This does not indicate that the "Clovis/Anzick" sample descends from the Pima people, but it could mean the opposite. The Pima people could descend from the Clovis people who occupied the area where the Anzick sample was discovered.

                              You will note that the 4 population approximation has "@ 2.099648" at the end of it. This indicates that the "best fit" population averages are reasonably close to the Clovis sample.

                              Once again these calculators are a best fit, and while they work for some people they will not provide the same results for others.

                              To reiterate from my previous posts:

                              Using Lochsbour as a sample population and comparing it to modern day Lithuanians will tell you far more than trying to do it the other way around.

                              La Brana was not Irish, as much as you may want it to be, and I recall in the 4 population approximation was the result something in the order of "@ 14 or 16" or something like that?

                              Using the La Brana sample as a sample population and comparing modern day Irish samples to it will tell you more than trying to compare in the reverse. There may be Irish people who descend from the same peoples as the La Brana sample. Or the "Irish average" could again simply be the best fit.

                              I think Hinxton-4 is an interesting sample, and it would be worth having Hinxton-4 as a sample population and comparing modern Irish samples to it. Hinxton-4 may be an Iron Age Briton and there may be modern Irish people that descend from the people Hinxton-4 belonged to. The "Irish average" sample population may just be one of the "best fits" at this point for the Hinxton-4 sample, or the Hinxton-4 could be originally from Ireland...
                              Last edited by N21163; 21 April 2015, 05:39 AM.

                              Comment


                              • I don't remember stating that Clovis had descendants. The fact that Clovis is closest to the modern Native American peoples says it all.

                                I have already shown you that I am close to Hinxton 4 and my autosomal dna represents the modern Irish. What part do you not understand?

                                Lochsbour is closest to the modern Lithuanian and Swedish populations. The calculator picks the best fit population for every query. That does not mean that it is wrong even though the end number is high. The designer can adjust it if he wishes to do so.

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