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Eurogenes K13 and K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

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  • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
    Now that is odd that the one academic you think worthy is a pop scientist who's conclusions fit neatly with your ideal whist all others are cast into the bin : )

    As it happens the finding was iffy but it's not the only one, a lot of early aMtDNA is suspect for one reason or another.

    The Spanish mtDNA you mentioned does look promising but more rigorous testing is needed, they are apparently on the way, and hopefully some sort of age for the remains in order to make the results useful.
    It is obvious to me that you don't accept that some western Europeans are indigenous.

    The two ancient remains were covered with red ochre and that shows that there was a link between these HG peoples.


    Did Sykes not get the autosomal dna from the "Red Lady of Paviland's" tooth? Is it not true that MTDNA will survive in the teeth? So,why would it be iffy?

    There is no reason that the Spanish test was wrong. The fact that 40% of females in western Europe are H is no surprise to me.
    Last edited by 1798; 14 April 2015, 04:45 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 192971 View Post
      The 4-Ancestors Oracle is a stupid way to fit population percent (like "North_Sea" etc) data to the averages of current populations for many people. Of course, if not all of your (great)grandparents are from the same population, then 4-Ancestors Oracle's coarse 25% population chunks may fit adequately to your data.

      For myself (known roots widely and deeply West-Finnish, with some East-Finnish) the plain Oracle gives better results.

      1 Southwest_Finnish 6.19
      2 Finnish 8.28
      3 East_Finnish 8.9
      4 Polish 12.41
      5 North_Swedish 12.67

      1 90.8% Southwest_Finnish + 9.2% Mari @5.23
      2 89.5% Southwest_Finnish + 10.5% Chuvash @5.34
      3 95.8% Southwest_Finnish + 4.2% Selkup @5.49
      4 83.2% East_Finnish + 16.8% French_Basque @5.5

      Already there can be seen that compared to the average "Southwest_Finnish" I am more eastern (Mari, Chuvash, Selkup), but compared to the average "East_Finnish" I am more western (French_Basque). The third composition is already clearly an artifact, and the fourth even more.

      For comparison, my 4-Ancestors Oracle four population fitting results:
      1 East_Finnish + Irish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @6.414351
      2 East_Finnish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @6.416669
      3 Irish + Irish + Lithuanian + Mari @6.454047
      4 Irish + Lithuanian + Mari + West_Scottish @6.472548
      ...
      13 East_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 6.711174

      The best fit of those (~6.41) is, due to the coarse fitting, more distant than the best fit by plain Oracle (5.23). Here it can also be seen that the 25% chunks force the population components to combine wildly, so that the third and fourth compositions do not even recognize any Finnish component in me, and still the Irish/West_Scottish artifact component manages to enter all the top four fits.
      Well said.
      AS you can see on gedmatch, there has been an array of admixture calculators over the years. Great work has gone into producing these but like other areas of genetic genealogy, there is further work to do yet.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by acollette49 View Post
        Thanks for the explanation. I do have some Portuguese, but it is literally 4 people in the early 1600s. I also have a pretty good idea of where my French ancestors are from, so everything except the Spanish makes sense in terms of migration and conquest.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          It is obvious to me that you don't accept that some western Europeans are indigenous.

          The two ancient remains were covered with red ochre and that shows that there was a link between these HG peoples.


          Did Sykes not get the autosomal dna from the "Red Lady of Paviland's" tooth? Is it not true that MTDNA will survive in the teeth? So,why would it be iffy?

          There is no reason that the Spanish test was wrong. The fact that 40% of females in western Europe are H is no surprise to me.
          How would you define indigenous ? I think it highly unlikely there is a modern West European population that is so isolated that it contains no or little EEF & ANE, could you give me an example ?

          The problem with Sykes' mtDNA test on the Red Lady was methodology, but it was the early days for such tests so it's understandable that they hadn't ironed out all the potential hiccups and of course significant advances have been made in the field in recent years.

          As I said it doesn't look too unreasonable they'll get a call for H with the El Miron sample once they conduct a thorough examination, at the moment they are relying on an enzyme that doesn't stick to H mtDNA (from what I can gather) but of course if the DNA is damaged in that region it won't stick to it anyway and that sample was reported as poor.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
            How would you define indigenous ? I think it highly unlikely there is a modern West European population that is so isolated that it contains no or little EEF & ANE, could you give me an example ?

            The problem with Sykes' mtDNA test on the Red Lady was methodology, but it was the early days for such tests so it's understandable that they hadn't ironed out all the potential hiccups and of course significant advances have been made in the field in recent years.

            As I said it doesn't look too unreasonable they'll get a call for H with the El Miron sample once they conduct a thorough examination, at the moment they are relying on an enzyme that doesn't stick to H mtDNA (from what I can gather) but of course if the DNA is damaged in that region it won't stick to it anyway and that sample was reported as poor.
            That is a good question.

            The 17% ANE that I have is from the very distant past.

            The ENF were descended from a Mesolithic population. Who were they?

            Comment


            • Wiki;
              "Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those that, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                Wiki;
                "Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those that, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them."
                Jean Manco posted a link to this article on another forum which you might find interesting.

                http://www.unz.com/gnxp/almost-all-b...the-neolithic/

                Comment


                • I'm Finnish with ancestry mostly from Eastern and Southern Finland.

                  K13
                  Admix Results (sorted):

                  # Population Percent
                  1 Baltic 48.95
                  2 North_Atlantic 31.05
                  3 Siberian 7.37
                  4 West_Med 6.16
                  5 West_Asian 2.7
                  6 Amerindian 2.55
                  7 Red_Sea 0.63
                  8 Northeast_African 0.43
                  9 Oceanian 0.17

                  Using 1 population approximation:
                  1 East_Finnish @ 3.535050
                  2 Finnish @ 4.486194
                  3 Estonian @ 4.971862
                  4 Kargopol_Russian @ 7.606990
                  5 Belorussian @ 8.667800
                  6 Estonian_Polish @ 8.832209
                  7 Lithuanian @ 9.041557
                  8 Russian_Smolensk @ 9.474498
                  9 Southwest_Finnish @ 9.851964
                  10 Polish @ 10.314017
                  11 Southwest_Russian @ 11.012150
                  12 Erzya @ 11.726254
                  13 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 12.128807
                  14 Ukrainian @ 12.620487
                  15 South_Polish @ 13.198195
                  16 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 13.697415
                  17 La_Brana-1 @ 16.385817
                  18 North_Swedish @ 19.169638
                  19 Croatian @ 20.517040
                  20 East_German @ 22.426914

                  Using 2 populations approximation:
                  1 50% East_Finnish +50% Estonian @ 2.958694


                  Using 3 populations approximation:
                  1 50% East_Finnish +25% Kargopol_Russian +25% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.679686


                  Using 4 populations approximation:
                  1 East_Finnish + Estonian + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.500657
                  2 East_Finnish + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.565299
                  3 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.679686
                  4 East_Finnish + Erzya + Estonian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.732254
                  5 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.732422
                  6 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Erzya + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.746639
                  7 Estonian + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.757597
                  8 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.775665
                  9 East_Finnish + Erzya + Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.796697
                  10 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Polish @ 2.851151
                  11 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian @ 2.863202
                  12 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Finnish @ 2.877655
                  13 Erzya + Finnish + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.890028
                  14 East_Finnish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.890738
                  15 Erzya + Estonian + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.894039
                  16 Finnish + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.909785
                  17 East_Finnish + Erzya + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.923563
                  18 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Estonian @ 2.958694
                  19 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + Finnish @ 2.982287
                  20 East_Finnish + Erzya + Estonian + Finnish @ 3.011775


                  K15
                  Admix Results (sorted):

                  # Population Percent
                  1 Eastern_Euro 26.59
                  2 North_Sea 24.15
                  3 Baltic 20.1
                  4 Atlantic 17.73
                  5 Siberian 5.91
                  6 West_Med 3.33
                  7 Amerindian 2.2

                  Using 1 population approximation:
                  1 East_Finnish @ 4.872878
                  2 Kargopol_Russian @ 9.313577
                  3 Finnish @ 9.846393
                  4 Southwest_Finnish @ 11.156616
                  5 Estonian @ 12.646970
                  6 Polish @ 12.967704
                  7 Erzya @ 13.833607
                  8 Southwest_Russian @ 14.320647
                  9 Ukrainian @ 14.359293
                  10 South_Polish @ 14.423973
                  11 Estonian_Polish @ 14.690531
                  12 Russian_Smolensk @ 15.275518
                  13 Belorussian @ 15.519096
                  14 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 15.555890
                  15 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 15.982323
                  16 La_Brana-1 @ 17.661135
                  17 East_German @ 18.081631
                  18 North_Swedish @ 18.213345
                  19 Croatian @ 18.459110
                  20 Hungarian @ 18.681910

                  Using 2 populations approximation:
                  1 50% East_Finnish +50% East_Finnish @ 4.872878


                  Using 3 populations approximation:
                  1 50% East_Finnish +25% East_Finnish +25% East_Finnish @ 4.872878


                  Using 4 populations approximation:
                  1 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.409276
                  2 Estonian_Polish + Mari + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.476406
                  3 Chuvash + Estonian_Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.553254
                  4 Chuvash + Estonian + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.572073
                  5 Mari + Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.582173
                  6 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.582550
                  7 Estonian_Polish + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.631569
                  8 Estonian + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.644938
                  9 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + North_Swedish @ 4.649968
                  10 Chuvash + Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.675759
                  11 Chuvash + Estonian_Polish + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.687123
                  12 Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Mari + West_Scottish @ 4.707956
                  13 Chuvash + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + West_Scottish @ 4.713418
                  14 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.715793
                  15 Chuvash + Danish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian @ 4.743880
                  16 Belorussian + Mari + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.751878
                  17 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + Norwegian @ 4.774970
                  18 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Polish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.792444
                  19 Estonian_Polish + Kargopol_Russian + Mari + West_Norwegian @ 4.801421
                  20 Danish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Mari @ 4.803503

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                    Jean Manco posted a link to this article on another forum which you might find interesting.

                    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/almost-all-b...the-neolithic/
                    I have read this already but I don't agree with the author even though I think that he is a brainy guy.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                      I have read this already but I don't agree with the author even though I think that he is a brainy guy.
                      Suggesting you consider everybody else you disagree with as cognitively challenged ? : )

                      Comment


                      • Lochsbour F999918 K15
                        # Population Percent
                        1 North_Sea 34.51
                        2 Baltic 33.51
                        3 Atlantic 23.86
                        4 Eastern_Euro 7.33
                        1 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish + Swedish @ 14.118155

                        The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners.

                        How can Lochsbour be a proxy for WHG?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                          How can Lochsbour be a proxy for WHG?
                          Because he was a hunter gatherer living in Western Europe before Middle Eastern farmers and others entered the area ??

                          Of course that's just a guess : )

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
                            Because he was a hunter gatherer living in Western Europe before Middle Eastern farmers and others entered the area ??

                            Of course that's just a guess : )
                            He seemed to be 50% Lithuanian so we will need a lot more ancient samples from western Europe.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                              He seemed to be 50% Lithuanian....
                              The Lochsbour sample is not 50% Lithuanian. The limitations of admixture calculators have been explained to you numerous times but you choose to ignore such posts.

                              You are commenting on misinformation.

                              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                              ...so we will need a lot more ancient samples from western Europe.
                              I would have thought most people would know this anyway, and you have stated this and variants numerous times already. Repeating statements such as this one will not speed up discoveries of ancient samples in Western Europe.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                                He seemed to be 50% Lithuanian so we will need a lot more ancient samples from western Europe.
                                Oh right, the present day Lithuanian people have remained in place since the Mesolithic period, so it's entirely accurate on your part to describe the ancient DNA results from Lochsbour as "50% Lithuanian." NOT!

                                That's my snarky way of stating the same objection as N21163 posted just before this post. Can you tell me why you even think we need DNA from ancient remains if you think that present day populations can be used as a reference sample for the admixture of ancient populations??!! Something like a time machine or time reversal that makes modern populations appropriate to describe more ancient ones?

                                Your circular reasoning and lack of scientific rigor in your thinking continue to boggle my mind. Everything is self-evident to you and all data confirms your firmly held beliefs, although it really confirms the opposite in most cases.
                                Last edited by MMaddi; 19 April 2015, 10:24 PM.

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