Eurogenes K13 and K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

[1798]

Now that is odd that the one academic you think worthy is a pop scientist who's conclusions fit neatly with your ideal whist all others are cast into the bin : )

As it happens the finding was iffy but it's not the only one, a lot of early aMtDNA is suspect for one reason or another.

The Spanish mtDNA you mentioned does look promising but more rigorous testing is needed, they are apparently on the way, and hopefully some sort of age for the remains in order to make the results useful.

It is obvious to me that you don't accept that some western Europeans are indigenous.

The two ancient remains were covered with red ochre and that shows that there was a link between these HG peoples.


Did Sykes not get the autosomal dna from the "Red Lady of Paviland's" tooth? Is it not true that MTDNA will survive in the teeth? So,why would it be iffy?

There is no reason that the Spanish test was wrong. The fact that 40% of females in western Europe are H is no surprise to me.

[N21163]

The 4-Ancestors Oracle is a stupid way to fit population percent (like "North_Sea" etc) data to the averages of current populations for many people. Of course, if not all of your (great)grandparents are from the same population, then 4-Ancestors Oracle's coarse 25% population chunks may fit adequately to your data.

For myself (known roots widely and deeply West-Finnish, with some East-Finnish) the plain Oracle gives better results.

1 Southwest_Finnish 6.19
2 Finnish 8.28
3 East_Finnish 8.9
4 Polish 12.41
5 North_Swedish 12.67

1 90.8% Southwest_Finnish + 9.2% Mari @5.23
2 89.5% Southwest_Finnish + 10.5% Chuvash @5.34
3 95.8% Southwest_Finnish + 4.2% Selkup @5.49
4 83.2% East_Finnish + 16.8% French_Basque @5.5

Already there can be seen that compared to the average "Southwest_Finnish" I am more eastern (Mari, Chuvash, Selkup), but compared to the average "East_Finnish" I am more western (French_Basque). The third composition is already clearly an artifact, and the fourth even more.

For comparison, my 4-Ancestors Oracle four population fitting results:
1 East_Finnish + Irish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @6.414351
2 East_Finnish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @6.416669
3 Irish + Irish + Lithuanian + Mari @6.454047
4 Irish + Lithuanian + Mari + West_Scottish @6.472548
...
13 East_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 6.711174

The best fit of those (~6.41) is, due to the coarse fitting, more distant than the best fit by plain Oracle (5.23). Here it can also be seen that the 25% chunks force the population components to combine wildly, so that the third and fourth compositions do not even recognize any Finnish component in me, and still the Irish/West_Scottish artifact component manages to enter all the top four fits.

Well said.
AS you can see on gedmatch, there has been an array of admixture calculators over the years. Great work has gone into producing these but like other areas of genetic genealogy, there is further work to do yet.

[N21163]

Thanks for the explanation. I do have some Portuguese, but it is literally 4 people in the early 1600s. I also have a pretty good idea of where my French ancestors are from, so everything except the Spanish makes sense in terms of migration and conquest.

[Subwoofer]

It is obvious to me that you don't accept that some western Europeans are indigenous.

The two ancient remains were covered with red ochre and that shows that there was a link between these HG peoples.


Did Sykes not get the autosomal dna from the "Red Lady of Paviland's" tooth? Is it not true that MTDNA will survive in the teeth? So,why would it be iffy?

There is no reason that the Spanish test was wrong. The fact that 40% of females in western Europe are H is no surprise to me.

How would you define indigenous ? I think it highly unlikely there is a modern West European population that is so isolated that it contains no or little EEF & ANE, could you give me an example ?

The problem with Sykes' mtDNA test on the Red Lady was methodology, but it was the early days for such tests so it's understandable that they hadn't ironed out all the potential hiccups and of course significant advances have been made in the field in recent years.

As I said it doesn't look too unreasonable they'll get a call for H with the El Miron sample once they conduct a thorough examination, at the moment they are relying on an enzyme that doesn't stick to H mtDNA (from what I can gather) but of course if the DNA is damaged in that region it won't stick to it anyway and that sample was reported as poor.

[1798]

How would you define indigenous ? I think it highly unlikely there is a modern West European population that is so isolated that it contains no or little EEF & ANE, could you give me an example ?

The problem with Sykes' mtDNA test on the Red Lady was methodology, but it was the early days for such tests so it's understandable that they hadn't ironed out all the potential hiccups and of course significant advances have been made in the field in recent years.

As I said it doesn't look too unreasonable they'll get a call for H with the El Miron sample once they conduct a thorough examination, at the moment they are relying on an enzyme that doesn't stick to H mtDNA (from what I can gather) but of course if the DNA is damaged in that region it won't stick to it anyway and that sample was reported as poor.

That is a good question.

The 17% ANE that I have is from the very distant past.

The ENF were descended from a Mesolithic population. Who were they?

[1798]

Wiki;
"Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those that, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them."

[Subwoofer]

Wiki;
"Indigenous communities, peoples, and nations are those that, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them."

Jean Manco posted a link to this article on another forum which you might find interesting.

http://www.unz.com/gnxp/almost-all-b...the-neolithic/

[Finn]

I'm Finnish with ancestry mostly from Eastern and Southern Finland.

K13
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 48.95
2 North_Atlantic 31.05
3 Siberian 7.37
4 West_Med 6.16
5 West_Asian 2.7
6 Amerindian 2.55
7 Red_Sea 0.63
8 Northeast_African 0.43
9 Oceanian 0.17

Using 1 population approximation:
1 East_Finnish @ 3.535050
2 Finnish @ 4.486194
3 Estonian @ 4.971862
4 Kargopol_Russian @ 7.606990
5 Belorussian @ 8.667800
6 Estonian_Polish @ 8.832209
7 Lithuanian @ 9.041557
8 Russian_Smolensk @ 9.474498
9 Southwest_Finnish @ 9.851964
10 Polish @ 10.314017
11 Southwest_Russian @ 11.012150
12 Erzya @ 11.726254
13 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 12.128807
14 Ukrainian @ 12.620487
15 South_Polish @ 13.198195
16 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 13.697415
17 La_Brana-1 @ 16.385817
18 North_Swedish @ 19.169638
19 Croatian @ 20.517040
20 East_German @ 22.426914

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Finnish +50% Estonian @ 2.958694


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Finnish +25% Kargopol_Russian +25% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.679686


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 East_Finnish + Estonian + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.500657
2 East_Finnish + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.565299
3 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.679686
4 East_Finnish + Erzya + Estonian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.732254
5 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.732422
6 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Erzya + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.746639
7 Estonian + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.757597
8 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.775665
9 East_Finnish + Erzya + Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.796697
10 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Polish @ 2.851151
11 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian @ 2.863202
12 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Finnish @ 2.877655
13 Erzya + Finnish + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.890028
14 East_Finnish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.890738
15 Erzya + Estonian + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.894039
16 Finnish + Finnish + Finnish + Kargopol_Russian @ 2.909785
17 East_Finnish + Erzya + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.923563
18 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian + Estonian @ 2.958694
19 East_Finnish + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + Finnish @ 2.982287
20 East_Finnish + Erzya + Estonian + Finnish @ 3.011775


K15
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Eastern_Euro 26.59
2 North_Sea 24.15
3 Baltic 20.1
4 Atlantic 17.73
5 Siberian 5.91
6 West_Med 3.33
7 Amerindian 2.2

Using 1 population approximation:
1 East_Finnish @ 4.872878
2 Kargopol_Russian @ 9.313577
3 Finnish @ 9.846393
4 Southwest_Finnish @ 11.156616
5 Estonian @ 12.646970
6 Polish @ 12.967704
7 Erzya @ 13.833607
8 Southwest_Russian @ 14.320647
9 Ukrainian @ 14.359293
10 South_Polish @ 14.423973
11 Estonian_Polish @ 14.690531
12 Russian_Smolensk @ 15.275518
13 Belorussian @ 15.519096
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 15.555890
15 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 15.982323
16 La_Brana-1 @ 17.661135
17 East_German @ 18.081631
18 North_Swedish @ 18.213345
19 Croatian @ 18.459110
20 Hungarian @ 18.681910

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Finnish +50% East_Finnish @ 4.872878


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Finnish +25% East_Finnish +25% East_Finnish @ 4.872878


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.409276
2 Estonian_Polish + Mari + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.476406
3 Chuvash + Estonian_Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.553254
4 Chuvash + Estonian + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.572073
5 Mari + Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.582173
6 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.582550
7 Estonian_Polish + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.631569
8 Estonian + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.644938
9 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + North_Swedish @ 4.649968
10 Chuvash + Polish + Southwest_Finnish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.675759
11 Chuvash + Estonian_Polish + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.687123
12 Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Mari + West_Scottish @ 4.707956
13 Chuvash + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + West_Scottish @ 4.713418
14 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.715793
15 Chuvash + Danish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian @ 4.743880
16 Belorussian + Mari + North_Swedish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.751878
17 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Estonian_Polish + Norwegian @ 4.774970
18 Chuvash + East_Finnish + Polish + Southwest_Finnish @ 4.792444
19 Estonian_Polish + Kargopol_Russian + Mari + West_Norwegian @ 4.801421
20 Danish + Estonian + Kargopol_Russian + Mari @ 4.803503

[1798]

Jean Manco posted a link to this article on another forum which you might find interesting.

http://www.unz.com/gnxp/almost-all-b...the-neolithic/

I have read this already but I don't agree with the author even though I think that he is a brainy guy.

[Subwoofer]

I have read this already but I don't agree with the author even though I think that he is a brainy guy.

Suggesting you consider everybody else you disagree with as cognitively challenged ? : )

[1798]

Lochsbour F999918 K15
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 34.51
2 Baltic 33.51
3 Atlantic 23.86
4 Eastern_Euro 7.33
1 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish + Swedish @ 14.118155

The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners.

How can Lochsbour be a proxy for WHG?

[Subwoofer]

How can Lochsbour be a proxy for WHG?

Because he was a hunter gatherer living in Western Europe before Middle Eastern farmers and others entered the area ??

Of course that's just a guess : )

[1798]

Because he was a hunter gatherer living in Western Europe before Middle Eastern farmers and others entered the area ??

Of course that's just a guess : )

He seemed to be 50% Lithuanian so we will need a lot more ancient samples from western Europe.

[N21163]

He seemed to be 50% Lithuanian....

The Lochsbour sample is not 50% Lithuanian. The limitations of admixture calculators have been explained to you numerous times but you choose to ignore such posts.

You are commenting on misinformation.

...so we will need a lot more ancient samples from western Europe.

I would have thought most people would know this anyway, and you have stated this and variants numerous times already. Repeating statements such as this one will not speed up discoveries of ancient samples in Western Europe.

[MMaddi]

He seemed to be 50% Lithuanian so we will need a lot more ancient samples from western Europe.

Oh right, the present day Lithuanian people have remained in place since the Mesolithic period, so it's entirely accurate on your part to describe the ancient DNA results from Lochsbour as "50% Lithuanian." NOT!

That's my snarky way of stating the same objection as N21163 posted just before this post. Can you tell me why you even think we need DNA from ancient remains if you think that present day populations can be used as a reference sample for the admixture of ancient populations??!! Something like a time machine or time reversal that makes modern populations appropriate to describe more ancient ones?

Your circular reasoning and lack of scientific rigor in your thinking continue to boggle my mind. Everything is self-evident to you and all data confirms your firmly held beliefs, although it really confirms the opposite in most cases.