R1b in Western Europe

[1798]

In the other thread you stated that U106 is estimated to be from 4,700 ybp, which I pretty much agreed with. It couldn't have been in a culture that existed before U106 first appeared in an individual. 4300 BC–ca 2800 BC is 6,300-4,800 ybp.

This estimated TMRCA is from Dr.Iain McDonald. I don't agree with this estimate because I think that U106 and P312 are Neolithic markers. I used the date in that post to show that L51 could not have come from Yamnaya.


There is something else that you have ignored. Newgrange was built 5000 years ago and that was 500 years before this migration. It would be hard not to see R1b involved in that migration which had to come from Brittany. Those people had their own language.

[Armando]

This estimated TMRCA is from Dr.Iain McDonald. I don't agree with this estimate because I think that U106 and P312 are Neolithic markers. I used the date in that post to show that L51 could not have come from Yamnaya.

Per the new YFull tree U106 formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 5800 ybp. Since all of the upstream markers have been found in the east the logical conclusion based on science that is where the parents clades of P312 and U106 come from.[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]There is something else that you have ignored. Newgrange was built 5000 years ago and that was 500 years before this migration. It would be hard not to see R1b involved in that migration which had to come from Brittany. Those people had their own language.[/QUOTE]
That's after R1b1a2a1a1 M405/S21/U106 formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 6000 ybp and R1b1a2a1a2 P312/S116/PF6547 * Z1904/CTS12684/PF6548 formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 5800 ybp per http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a/ and after people from the east moved west.

[1798]

Per the new YFull tree U106 formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 5800 ybp. Since all of the upstream markers have been found in the east the logical conclusion based on science that is where the parents clades of P312 and U106 come from.

[/QUOTE]There is something else that you have ignored. Newgrange was built 5000 years ago and that was 500 years before this migration. It would be hard not to see R1b involved in that migration which had to come from Brittany. Those people had their own language.[/QUOTE]
That's after R1b1a2a1a1 M405/S21/U106 formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 6000 ybp and R1b1a2a1a2 P312/S116/PF6547 * Z1904/CTS12684/PF6548 formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 5800 ybp per http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a/ and after people from the east moved west.[/QUOTE]

Where is the proof that U106 originated 6000 ybp in the Yamanya Culture? That was 1500 years before this migration. Where are the basal U106 branches in the Steppe? Has U106 been found in ancient dna there?

[Armando]

Where is the proof that U106 originated 6000 ybp in the Yamanya Culture? That was 1500 years before this migration. Where are the basal U106 branches in the Steppe? Has U106 been found in ancient dna there?

Since you keep ignoring the facts I will continue to point them out. The oldest R-L23 has been found in Russia, the oldest L278 has been found in Russia, the oldest R* has been found in Siberia. The oldest R-P312 has been found in Germany in the Bell Beaker culture. They all have shared autosomal ancestry. It is obvious that the migration of R1b was east to west. Since P312 and U106 are brother clades it is obvious that they will have shared autosomal ancestry since both SNPs would have appeared within a time frame before the autosomal DNA could disappear from successive generations marrying into a group with completely different autosomal DNA.

[1798]

Since you keep ignoring the facts I will continue to point them out. The oldest R-L23 has been found in Russia, the oldest L278 has been found in Russia, the oldest R* has been found in Siberia. The oldest R-P312 has been found in Germany in the Bell Beaker culture. They all have shared autosomal ancestry. It is obvious that the migration of R1b was east to west. Since P312 and U106 are brother clades it is obvious that they will have shared autosomal ancestry since both SNPs would have appeared within a time frame before the autosomal DNA could disappear from successive generations marrying into a group with completely different autosomal DNA.

It does not provide concrete proof that all R1b and H in western Europe today is descended from Bronze-Age people who came from the Steppe 4,500 ybp.

[1798]

This is the culture that the ancient R1b1 man belonged to and Prof. Cunliffe links it to the PIE in his book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery