Shandon Cave

[1798]

http://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibi...don_Caves.html

"A Professor Owens and Dr. Carte who examined the mammoth bones found by Brenan concluded that the mammal was 15ft in height and 24ft long. Adams noted that the bones of horse found at Shandon 'somewhat exceeded the height of the Exmoor pony, and stood about 14 hands at the shoulder. The remains at about 40 reindeer were found by Brenan and Adams."

When people write about horses coming from the Steppe they should know that there were horses in western Europe before the Ice-Age.

[1798]

http://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibi...don_Caves.html

"A Professor Owens and Dr. Carte who examined the mammoth bones found by Brenan concluded that the mammal was 15ft in height and 24ft long. Adams noted that the bones of horse found at Shandon 'somewhat exceeded the height of the Exmoor pony, and stood about 14 hands at the shoulder. The remains at about 40 reindeer were found by Brenan and Adams."

When people write about horses coming from the Steppe they should know that there were horses in western Europe before the Ice-Age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorraia

[T E Peterman]

Read "The Horse in Human History". The book describes a massive ossuary of horse bones found in France that dates to the paleolithic. Horse were an important item on the western European paleolithic menu. By the time of horse domestication, their numbers had been reduced, mainly by human predation, to the point that the only remaining population was in Ukraine & the Pontic Steppe.

Analysis of domesticated horse DNA worldwide also points to an origin in the Ukraine to Pontic Steppe region.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

Read "The Horse in Human History". The book describes a massive ossuary of horse bones found in France that dates to the paleolithic. Horse were an important item on the western European paleolithic menu. By the time of horse domestication, their numbers had been reduced, mainly by human predation, to the point that the only remaining population was in Ukraine & the Pontic Steppe.

Analysis of domesticated horse DNA worldwide also points to an origin in the Ukraine to Pontic Steppe region.

Timothy Peterman

What the horse got to do with R1b?

[MMaddi]

What the horse got to do with R1b?

Well, you're the one who started this thread about horses in western Europe. We all understand that you're trying to refute the idea that domesicated horses were introduced into Europe during the Bronze Age from the Eurasian steppes.

T E Peterman explained to you that wild horses in Europe during the Paleolithic were part of the human diet and not domesticated. I hope you understand his point that there's a difference between horses hunted for meat and domesticated horses. It was certainly clear to me that he was addressing your objection.

Frankly, I think that you were being deliberately disingenuous in your reply to him. If you aren't able to deal with the facts as established by archaeology (which you deny has any relevance), then you shouldn't have started this thread.

[1798]

Well, you're the one who started this thread about horses in western Europe. We all understand that you're trying to refute the idea that domesicated horses were introduced into Europe during the Bronze Age from the Eurasian steppes.

T E Peterman explained to you that wild horses in Europe during the Paleolithic were part of the human diet and not domesticated. I hope you understand his point that there's a difference between horses hunted for meat and domesticated horses. It was certainly clear to me that he was addressing your objection.

Frankly, I think that you were being deliberately disingenuous in your reply to him. If you aren't able to deal with the facts as established by archaeology (which you deny has any relevance), then you shouldn't have started this thread.

"The Sorraia is a rare breed of horse indigenous to the portion of the Iberian peninsula, in the Sorraia River basin, in Portugal. The Sorraia is known for its primitive features, including a convex profile and dun coloring with primitive markings. Concerning its origins, a theory has been advanced by some authors that the Sorraia is a descendant of primitive horses belonging to the naturally occurring wild fauna of Southern Iberia. Studies are currently ongoing to discover the relationship between the Sorraia and various wild horse types, as well as its relationship with other breeds from the Iberian Peninsula and Northern Africa.

Members of the breed are small, but hardy and well-adapted to harsh conditions. They were occasionally captured and used by native farmers for centuries, and a remnant population of these nearly extinct horses was discovered by a Portuguese zoologist in the early 20th century. Today, the Sorraia has become the focus of preservation efforts, with European scientists leading the way and enthusiasts from several countries forming projects and establishing herds to assist in the re-establishment of this breed from its current endangered status."

How do you or any scientist know what people 6000 years ago were doing with horses? Even if the horses were from the Steppe 6000 years ago what has that to do with R1b?

[LynCra]

At risk of asking a daft question - Why are we arguing about horses?

[T E Peterman]

I'm not suprised to learn that domestication attempts have been made on other forms of equids; take the donkey for example.

The horse has an indirect connection to R1b. Linguists have ascertained through careful study of word roots, etc., that PIE speakers were affiliated with the domestication of horses. They have also studied borrowing between PIE & adjacent languages & the two with the greatest early borrowing were Uralic & Caucasian. This points heavily to the Pontic Steppe.

Archaeologists have identified the spread of the domesticated horse & associated finds. Linguists have worked out the diaspora of PIE into its various branches. The results seem to coincide. Moreover, if you buy into the notion that L11 is derived from L51, which is derived from L23, which is derived from M269, the distribution & timing looks a lot like that of the horse & PIE. Maybe they were totally separate events. But the most parsimonious explanation links the three.

Timothy Peterman

[MMaddi]

How do you or any scientist know what people 6000 years ago were doing with horses? Even if the horses were from the Steppe 6000 years ago what has that to do with R1b?

If you would read David Anthony's book, which you vehemently refuse to do, you'd know that he establishes that the jaw bones from Eurasian steppes horses are the oldest remains that show that bits were used. Bits are not needed for horses that are slaughtered for meat. They are solely used to ride domesticated horses.

As for your second question, the answer has been summarized for you many times. And, if you would only read Anthony's book, even you might admit that the evidence, when all pulled together is plausible to correlate men from the Bronze Age steppes and R1b. But, as I already noted, you refuse to read Anthony's book.

So, either please stop asking us the same question, since you ignore the answer, or read Anthony's book and consider the strong archaeological evidence that connects R1b and men from the Bronze Age steppes. At this point, you're just wasting your time and ours.

[MMaddi]

At risk of asking a daft question - Why are we arguing about horses?

Because 1798 is committed to refuting strong scientific evidence that establishes a correlation between the introduction of R1b into Europe from the Eurasian steppes during the Bronze Age and the men from those steppes who domesticated horses. (Read T E Peterman's good short summary of the thinking in post #8 above.) He can't even consider the possibility that R1b did not exist in Europe until about 5,000 years ago, since he insists that it has been there for 10,000+ years. This would ruin his obsession that his paternal line ancestors have lived in Ireland that long.

It's not your question that's daft. What's daft is his obsession. Go figure.

[1798]

Because 1798 is committed to refuting strong scientific evidence that establishes a correlation between the introduction of R1b into Europe from the Eurasian steppes during the Bronze Age and the men from those steppes who domesticated horses. (Read T E Peterman's good short summary of the thinking in post #8 above.) He can't even consider the possibility that R1b did not exist in Europe until about 5,000 years ago, since he insists that it has been there for 10,000+ years. This would ruin his obsession that his paternal line ancestors have lived in Ireland that long.

It's not your question that's daft. What's daft is his obsession. Go figure.

You won't accept the fact that R1b was not found in ancient remains in the Steppe. So at present it is a fantasy for some people.

[MMaddi]

You won't accept the fact that R1b was not found in ancient remains in the Steppe. So at present it is a fantasy for some people.

You say that those who believe the theory that R1b came from the steppes into Europe about 5,000 years ago (with some fairly suggestive evidence across a few scientific disciplines) have a fantasy. What about you? You assure us that R1b has been in western Europe for over 10,000 years and assure that this is not just a theory, but is a fact.

So, tell us where the R1b in western Europe has been found that's older than 5,000 years. Of course, with a few dozen results from sites in France, Spain, Italy and Germany, not one R1b has been found older than about 4,600 years.

So, who is the one with the fantasy? If you have a mirror nearby, take a look.

[N21163]

You say that those who believe the theory that R1b came from the steppes into Europe about 5,000 years ago (with some fairly suggestive evidence across a few scientific disciplines) have a fantasy. What about you? You assure us that R1b has been in western Europe for over 10,000 years and assure that this is not just a theory, but is a fact.

So, tell us where the R1b in western Europe has been found that's older than 5,000 years. Of course, with a few dozen results from sites in France, Spain, Italy and Germany, not one R1b has been found older than about 4,600 years.

So, who is the one with the fantasy? If you have a mirror nearby, take a look.

[1798]

If you would read David Anthony's book, which you vehemently refuse to do, you'd know that he establishes that the jaw bones from Eurasian steppes horses are the oldest remains that show that bits were used. Bits are not needed for horses that are slaughtered for meat. They are solely used to ride domesticated horses.

As for your second question, the answer has been summarized for you many times. And, if you would only read Anthony's book, even you might admit that the evidence, when all pulled together is plausible to correlate men from the Bronze Age steppes and R1b. But, as I already noted, you refuse to read Anthony's book.

So, either please stop asking us the same question, since you ignore the answer, or read Anthony's book and consider the strong archaeological evidence that connects R1b and men from the Bronze Age steppes. At this point, you're just wasting your time and ours.

David Anthony doesn't know anything about horses. You don't need a metal bit to ride a horse.

"Rope halters are some of the more popular pieces of horse tack used when traveling with a horse. Intended for horse handling, they are a continuous piece of strong rope with knots. Both new and seasoned riders know it's just good sense to have one or two extra rope halters on hand."

When we were teenagers we used make our own.

[1798]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...rse_in_Britain
"Horse remains dating from 10,500–8,000 BC have been recovered from Sewell's Cave, Flixton, Seamer Carr, Uxbridge and Thatcham.[14] Remains dating from around 7,000 BC have been found in Gough's Cave in Cheddar.[15]

Although there is an apparent absence of horse remains between 7000 BC and 3500 BC, there is evidence that wild horses remained in Britain after it became an island separate from Europe by about 5,500 BC. Pre-domestication wild horse bones have been found in Neolithic tombs of the Severn-Cotswold type, dating from around 3500 BC.[16]"