SNP Titbits

[1798]

L23 is the SAME in western Europe and Asia. It is just a single SNP.

In general, the L23+ population in western Europe is also L11+ & P311+. The L23+ population of Asia is L11-.

The P311 mutation did in fact happen in just one man & anyone who is P311+ is his patrilineal descendant. Regardless of where he walked in from, that one man did populate Europe, and most of the recent estimates suggest he lived no more than 4,500 to 5,000 years ago.

Timothy Peterman

They are two different groups.
I know that P311 was just one mutation and millions have it today. It doesn't mean that 6000 years ago there was only one man with this mutation. Just like today there are thousands of Irishmen with the M222 mutation.

[T E Peterman]

L23 is the SAME in western Europe and Asia. It is just a single SNP.

In general, the L23+ population in western Europe is also L11+ & P311+. The L23+ population of Asia is L11-.

The P311 mutation did in fact happen in just one man & anyone who is P311+ is his patrilineal descendant. Regardless of where he walked in from, that one man did populate Europe, and most of the recent estimates suggest he lived no more than 4,500 to 5,000 years ago.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

Unless there was a NPE, King Richard III wasn't Anglo Saxon. He was a Plantagenet, from Anjou in western France.

Most of the R1b L23+ in western Europe is also L51+ & L11+. Most of the R1b L23+ in Anatolia, the Balkans & points eastward is L11-.

The mutation for P311 may very well have happened in Europe, in a person who had recently migrated up the Danube from the Black Sea area.

Why would the presence of ANE in Native Americans prove that ANE was somehow native to Europe? Unless you are also a big proponent of the questionable Clovis/ Solutrean hypothesis. I'm not a fan of this, although I don't deny its possibility. I just don't think that stone manufacture technologies would have been retained during the handful of generations spent hunting marine resources as they migrated across the ice.

Considering that P ( parent clade to R & Q) has been found among Phillipine natives & is related to other components of the K haplogroup found in Indonesia, the most parsimonious explanation is that P originated in Southeast Asia, after many millenia of tropical travel from Africa to India to Southeast Asia. They no doubt continued to follow the coastline, which brought them to the temperate Asia-Pacific region. The group split; one followed the coast into Beringia & America. The other went inland in southern Siberia & hunted big game, drifting inland (ie westward) over the millenia. I wouldn't be surprised if by 10,000 or 15,000 years ago, the groups had totally split & were no longer in contact with one another. Genetic drift, of course, made Q the dominant haplogroup of the American group & R the dominant haplogroup of the Central Asian group.

Has anyone studied Ainu DNA? I wonder if they contain ANE.

Timothy Peterman

That is right the L23in western Europe is different to L23 in western Europe. One P311 man did not walk in from the Steppe and populate Europe. No scientist would stand over that statement.

[T E Peterman]

Unless there was a NPE, King Richard III wasn't Anglo Saxon. He was a Plantagenet, from Anjou in western France.

Most of the R1b L23+ in western Europe is also L51+ & L11+. Most of the R1b L23+ in Anatolia, the Balkans & points eastward is L11-.

The mutation for P311 may very well have happened in Europe, in a person who had recently migrated up the Danube from the Black Sea area.

Why would the presence of ANE in Native Americans prove that ANE was somehow native to Europe? Unless you are also a big proponent of the questionable Clovis/ Solutrean hypothesis. I'm not a fan of this, although I don't deny its possibility. I just don't think that stone manufacture technologies would have been retained during the handful of generations spent hunting marine resources as they migrated across the ice.

Considering that P ( parent clade to R & Q) has been found among Phillipine natives & is related to other components of the K haplogroup found in Indonesia, the most parsimonious explanation is that P originated in Southeast Asia, after many millenia of tropical travel from Africa to India to Southeast Asia. They no doubt continued to follow the coastline, which brought them to the temperate Asia-Pacific region. The group split; one followed the coast into Beringia & America. The other went inland in southern Siberia & hunted big game, drifting inland (ie westward) over the millenia. I wouldn't be surprised if by 10,000 or 15,000 years ago, the groups had totally split & were no longer in contact with one another. Genetic drift, of course, made Q the dominant haplogroup of the American group & R the dominant haplogroup of the Central Asian group.

Has anyone studied Ainu DNA? I wonder if they contain ANE.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

Yep but also Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia & Turkey (amongst other places), courtesy of Myres.

The L23 found outside of Western Europe tends to belong to different branches than the L23 typically found in Western Europe, however it's still the same L23 and widespread. L23 itself isn't terribly old so if you want to prove R1b has been in Western Europe since before the LGM (or just after it) you will have to include the distribution of all L23 in your theory.

Yes, L23 is the ancestor of all of us but why do you think that R1b could only move in one direction from east to west? What is the reason that R1b could not move from west to east at any time in its entire history?

[Subwoofer]

Is the L23 in Pakistan and Jordan different to the European L23? L51* is found in Italy. Did that group come from the Steppe? The most important ancestor for us is P311 and I have already posted stuff about it.

Yep but also Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia & Turkey (amongst other places), courtesy of Myres.

The L23 found outside of Western Europe tends to belong to different branches than the L23 typically found in Western Europe, however it's still the same L23 and widespread. L23 itself isn't terribly old so if you want to prove R1b has been in Western Europe since before the LGM (or just after it) you will have to include the distribution of all L23 in your theory.

[1798]

R-L51 x L11 isn't found anywhere in great quantities and almost all of it in Europe are L11+ but why don't you talk about L23, it's only a little older than L51.

Just after the quote you make so much of it continues



Of course you could look up the information on L23 in Myres itself and try to explain how L23's presence in places like Jordan and Pakistan fits in with your theories ?

Is the L23 in Pakistan and Jordan different to the European L23? L51* is found in Italy. Did that group come from the Steppe? The most important ancestor for us is P311 and I have already posted stuff about it.

[Subwoofer]

"It was also in this period between 2000 and 2010 that it became clear that especially Western European R1b is dominated by specific sub-clades of R-M269 (with some small amounts of other types found in areas such as Sardinia[7][12]). Within Europe, R-M269 is dominated by R-M412, also known as R-L51, which according to Myres et al. (2010) is "virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

R-L51 x L11 isn't found anywhere in great quantities and almost all of it in Europe are L11+ but why don't you talk about L23, it's only a little older than L51.

Just after the quote you make so much of it continues

Myres et al. note further that concerning its closest relatives, in R-L23*, that it is "instructive" that these are often more than 10% of the population in the Caucasus, Turkey, and some southeast European and circum-Uralic populations. In Western Europe it is also present but in generally much lower levels apart from "an instance of 27% in Switzerland's Upper Rhone Valley

Of course you could look up the information on L23 in Myres itself and try to explain how L23's presence in places like Jordan and Pakistan fits in with your theories ?

[1798]

That's right. He mentions PIE, not R1b. Yet you quote him and then make the jump that R1b was in Europe due to what you've quoted from him.

In other words, you twisted his quote and, in effect, put words in his mouth to suit your purposes. You gave the impression, by quoting him, that he supports your pet theory/obsession.

This is just another example of your intellectual dishonesty, which I've pointed out before.

The only person or persons who are being dishonest are those who persist with the ABI theory. Its a load of old baloney tying single haplogroups to the PIE or trying to determine where haplogroups originated through language. The linguists can't even agree on the origin of the PIE. The Anglo-Saxon king Richard III was a wake-up call for all of you people.

The people of western Europe were building megalithic tombs 1000 years before the origin of the Yamna Culture. Do you think that they were grunting at each other instead of using a language?

[MMaddi]

Patterson is writing about the PIE not R1b. The PIE coming from the Steppe has nothing to do with R1b.

That's right. He mentions PIE, not R1b. Yet you quote him and then make the jump that R1b was in Europe due to what you've quoted from him.

In other words, you twisted his quote and, in effect, put words in his mouth to suit your purposes. You gave the impression, by quoting him, that he supports your pet theory/obsession.

This is just another example of your intellectual dishonesty, which I've pointed out before.

[1798]

"It was also in this period between 2000 and 2010 that it became clear that especially Western European R1b is dominated by specific sub-clades of R-M269 (with some small amounts of other types found in areas such as Sardinia[7][12]). Within Europe, R-M269 is dominated by R-M412, also known as R-L51, which according to Myres et al. (2010) is "virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

[1798]

I see why you believe the quoted statement is flawed. That's because the Caucasus is not in Europe, but in Asia, not far from the Pontic steppes.

This doesn't fit in with your pet theory/obsession that R1b was in Europe 10,000 years ago and was not introduced into Europe from Asia less than 5,000 years ago. Nothing that you quoted says that R1b was in Europe as early as you claim. It merely states that "modern Europeans have genetic contributions from a third group, originating in ancient north Eurasia, that was unknown before research from Reich and collaborators was published in September." This doesn't say anything about the haplogroup(s) of that third group.

If you're going to quote a news account or study, it's not too wise to claim that it says something it doesn't say. That doesn't help your credibility one iota.

There is no evidence to show that P311 came from the Steppe. That is what is important. You are ignoring the evidence. P311 is the ancestor of the majority of western Europeans.
Patterson is writing about the PIE not R1b. The PIE coming from the Steppe has nothing to do with R1b.
ANE is not found in modern Siberians. That suggests to me that ANE is European in origin because it is found in the NA.

[MMaddi]

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...-of-europeans/

"As expected, the genetic data showed that modern Europeans hold a mix of genes from Middle Eastern farmers and the European hunter-gatherers who preceded them into Europe. But it also shows that modern Europeans have genetic contributions from a third group, originating in ancient north Eurasia, that was unknown before research from Reich and collaborators was published in September. It appears that this group eventually spread not just into Europe, but also to North America, since their genes are represented in Native Americans.

That ancient north Eurasian population was apparently replaced in the lands between, however, because there’s no trace of their DNA in modern Siberians."

The ANE is pre LGM dna which is found in K14 and is still found in modern Europeans.


"Patterson said that linguistic evidence has tracked the ancestral language, called “late proto-Indo-European” to about 3,500 years ago in the Caucasus, among a people who had wheeled vehicles at a time when they were just being put into use."

This statement is flawed but it shows that R1b was in Europe before the PIE.

I see why you believe the quoted statement is flawed. That's because the Caucasus is not in Europe, but in Asia, not far from the Pontic steppes.

This doesn't fit in with your pet theory/obsession that R1b was in Europe 10,000 years ago and was not introduced into Europe from Asia less than 5,000 years ago. Nothing that you quoted says that R1b was in Europe as early as you claim. It merely states that "modern Europeans have genetic contributions from a third group, originating in ancient north Eurasia, that was unknown before research from Reich and collaborators was published in September." This doesn't say anything about the haplogroup(s) of that third group.

If you're going to quote a news account or study, it's not too wise to claim that it says something it doesn't say. That doesn't help your credibility one iota.

[1798]

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...-of-europeans/

"As expected, the genetic data showed that modern Europeans hold a mix of genes from Middle Eastern farmers and the European hunter-gatherers who preceded them into Europe. But it also shows that modern Europeans have genetic contributions from a third group, originating in ancient north Eurasia, that was unknown before research from Reich and collaborators was published in September. It appears that this group eventually spread not just into Europe, but also to North America, since their genes are represented in Native Americans.

That ancient north Eurasian population was apparently replaced in the lands between, however, because there’s no trace of their DNA in modern Siberians."

The ANE is pre LGM dna which is found in K14 and is still found in modern Europeans.


"Patterson said that linguistic evidence has tracked the ancestral language, called “late proto-Indo-European” to about 3,500 years ago in the Caucasus, among a people who had wheeled vehicles at a time when they were just being put into use."

This statement is flawed but it shows that R1b was in Europe before the PIE.

[1798]

Just because you can't see freckles on people with dark skin doesn't mean they don't have them : )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freckle



I haven't the time nor patience to check for myself but everybody else is saying he had dark skin, eyes and hair, you kicking against the facts again ?

He has the same alleles as I have for blue eyes. He has two copies of the red hair gene which is unusual for dark skinned people.