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  • #16
    Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
    R-L51 x L11 isn't found anywhere in great quantities and almost all of it in Europe are L11+ but why don't you talk about L23, it's only a little older than L51.

    Just after the quote you make so much of it continues



    Of course you could look up the information on L23 in Myres itself and try to explain how L23's presence in places like Jordan and Pakistan fits in with your theories ?
    Is the L23 in Pakistan and Jordan different to the European L23? L51* is found in Italy. Did that group come from the Steppe? The most important ancestor for us is P311 and I have already posted stuff about it.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      Is the L23 in Pakistan and Jordan different to the European L23? L51* is found in Italy. Did that group come from the Steppe? The most important ancestor for us is P311 and I have already posted stuff about it.
      Yep but also Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia & Turkey (amongst other places), courtesy of Myres.

      The L23 found outside of Western Europe tends to belong to different branches than the L23 typically found in Western Europe, however it's still the same L23 and widespread. L23 itself isn't terribly old so if you want to prove R1b has been in Western Europe since before the LGM (or just after it) you will have to include the distribution of all L23 in your theory.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Subwoofer View Post
        Yep but also Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia & Turkey (amongst other places), courtesy of Myres.

        The L23 found outside of Western Europe tends to belong to different branches than the L23 typically found in Western Europe, however it's still the same L23 and widespread. L23 itself isn't terribly old so if you want to prove R1b has been in Western Europe since before the LGM (or just after it) you will have to include the distribution of all L23 in your theory.
        Yes, L23 is the ancestor of all of us but why do you think that R1b could only move in one direction from east to west? What is the reason that R1b could not move from west to east at any time in its entire history?

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        • #19
          Unless there was a NPE, King Richard III wasn't Anglo Saxon. He was a Plantagenet, from Anjou in western France.

          Most of the R1b L23+ in western Europe is also L51+ & L11+. Most of the R1b L23+ in Anatolia, the Balkans & points eastward is L11-.

          The mutation for P311 may very well have happened in Europe, in a person who had recently migrated up the Danube from the Black Sea area.

          Why would the presence of ANE in Native Americans prove that ANE was somehow native to Europe? Unless you are also a big proponent of the questionable Clovis/ Solutrean hypothesis. I'm not a fan of this, although I don't deny its possibility. I just don't think that stone manufacture technologies would have been retained during the handful of generations spent hunting marine resources as they migrated across the ice.

          Considering that P ( parent clade to R & Q) has been found among Phillipine natives & is related to other components of the K haplogroup found in Indonesia, the most parsimonious explanation is that P originated in Southeast Asia, after many millenia of tropical travel from Africa to India to Southeast Asia. They no doubt continued to follow the coastline, which brought them to the temperate Asia-Pacific region. The group split; one followed the coast into Beringia & America. The other went inland in southern Siberia & hunted big game, drifting inland (ie westward) over the millenia. I wouldn't be surprised if by 10,000 or 15,000 years ago, the groups had totally split & were no longer in contact with one another. Genetic drift, of course, made Q the dominant haplogroup of the American group & R the dominant haplogroup of the Central Asian group.

          Has anyone studied Ainu DNA? I wonder if they contain ANE.

          Timothy Peterman

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          • #20
            Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
            Unless there was a NPE, King Richard III wasn't Anglo Saxon. He was a Plantagenet, from Anjou in western France.

            Most of the R1b L23+ in western Europe is also L51+ & L11+. Most of the R1b L23+ in Anatolia, the Balkans & points eastward is L11-.

            The mutation for P311 may very well have happened in Europe, in a person who had recently migrated up the Danube from the Black Sea area.


            Why would the presence of ANE in Native Americans prove that ANE was somehow native to Europe? Unless you are also a big proponent of the questionable Clovis/ Solutrean hypothesis. I'm not a fan of this, although I don't deny its possibility. I just don't think that stone manufacture technologies would have been retained during the handful of generations spent hunting marine resources as they migrated across the ice.

            Considering that P ( parent clade to R & Q) has been found among Phillipine natives & is related to other components of the K haplogroup found in Indonesia, the most parsimonious explanation is that P originated in Southeast Asia, after many millenia of tropical travel from Africa to India to Southeast Asia. They no doubt continued to follow the coastline, which brought them to the temperate Asia-Pacific region. The group split; one followed the coast into Beringia & America. The other went inland in southern Siberia & hunted big game, drifting inland (ie westward) over the millenia. I wouldn't be surprised if by 10,000 or 15,000 years ago, the groups had totally split & were no longer in contact with one another. Genetic drift, of course, made Q the dominant haplogroup of the American group & R the dominant haplogroup of the Central Asian group.

            Has anyone studied Ainu DNA? I wonder if they contain ANE.

            Timothy Peterman
            That is right the L23in western Europe is different to L23 in western Europe. One P311 man did not walk in from the Steppe and populate Europe. No scientist would stand over that statement.

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            • #21
              L23 is the SAME in western Europe and Asia. It is just a single SNP.

              In general, the L23+ population in western Europe is also L11+ & P311+. The L23+ population of Asia is L11-.

              The P311 mutation did in fact happen in just one man & anyone who is P311+ is his patrilineal descendant. Regardless of where he walked in from, that one man did populate Europe, and most of the recent estimates suggest he lived no more than 4,500 to 5,000 years ago.

              Timothy Peterman

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                L23 is the SAME in western Europe and Asia. It is just a single SNP.

                In general, the L23+ population in western Europe is also L11+ & P311+. The L23+ population of Asia is L11-.

                The P311 mutation did in fact happen in just one man & anyone who is P311+ is his patrilineal descendant. Regardless of where he walked in from, that one man did populate Europe, and most of the recent estimates suggest he lived no more than 4,500 to 5,000 years ago.

                Timothy Peterman
                They are two different groups.
                I know that P311 was just one mutation and millions have it today. It doesn't mean that 6000 years ago there was only one man with this mutation. Just like today there are thousands of Irishmen with the M222 mutation.

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