The Neolithic Transition

[1798]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Ireland

"From around 4500 BC a Neolithic package that included cereal cultivars, housing culture (similar to those of the same period in Scotland) and stone monuments arrived in Ireland. Sheep, goats, cattle and cereals were imported from southwest continental Europe, and the population then rose significantly. At the Céide Fields in County Mayo, an extensive Neolithic field system (arguably the oldest known in the world) has been preserved beneath a blanket of peat. Consisting of small fields separated from one another by dry-stone walls, the Céide Fields were farmed for several centuries between 3500 and 3000 BC. Wheat and Barley were the principal crops cultivated. Pottery made its appearance around the same time as agriculture. Ware similar to that found in northern Britain has been excavated in Ulster (Lyle's Hill pottery) and in Limerick. Typical of this ware are wide-mouthed, round-bottomed bowls.

This follows a pattern similar to Western Europe or gradual onset of Neolithic, such as seen in La Hoguette Culture of France and Iberia's Impressed Cardial Ware Culture. Cereal culture advance markedly slows north of France; certain cereal strains such as wheat were difficult to grow in cold climates—however, barley and German rye were suitable replacements. It can be speculated that the DQ2.5 aspect of the AH8.1 haplotype may have been involved in the slowing of cereal culture into Ireland, Scotland and Scandinavia since this haplotype confers susceptibility to a Triticeae protein induced disease as well as Type I Diabetes and other autoimmune diseases that may have arisen as an indirect result of Neolithization."

[1798]

http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15

"Our observation of the Y-chromosomal structure in geographically different Armenian populations suggests that the Armenian Highland served as a transitional corridor for at least two distinct pathways of migration for Neolithic farmers from the Near East westward and northward. The movement to Europe took place predominantly via the western region of the Armenian Highland alongside the coastline of the Mediterranean Sea, which is supported by the spatial distribution pattern of the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269. The migration to the North Caucasus occurred mainly across the central and eastern regions of the Armenian Highland, which is shown by the geographical distribution of haplogroup G-M201. In addition, we identified a distinct Neolithic wave of bidirectional expansion to Europe and the North Caucasus associated with haplogroup J2-M172.

Thus, at the initial stage of the Neolithic migration from the Levant, different directions and waves of population movement could be identified in the Armenian Highland (Figure 8). This inference needs to be tested by further study of other indigenous populations of the region using higher resolution genotyping of Y-chromosome, mitochondrial, and autosomal DNA markers, as well as applying the data recovered from ancient DNA."

[1798]

Just what I expect from you - selective quoting to ignore what the real meaning is of what you're quoting, in order to make it seem that you have proven your point.

You do it with studies that you quote and you've just done it with my post. But then my post is still there for everyone to see how intellectually dishonest you are.

Thank you for your kind comments also.

[1798]

You conveniently chopped off the sarcasm clause MMaddi had on his post.

You truly have lost your marbles if you believe you and your posts are superior to others.

They are not.

Thank you for your kind comments.

[MMaddi]

Thanks

Just what I expect from you - selective quoting to ignore what the real meaning is of what you're quoting, in order to make it seem that you have proven your point.

You do it with studies that you quote and you've just done it with my post. But then my post is still there for everyone to see how intellectually dishonest you are.

[N21163]

Thanks

You conveniently chopped off the sarcasm clause MMaddi had on his post.

You truly have lost your marbles if you believe you and your posts are superior to others.

They are not.

[1798]

Excuse me! I didn't realize that I was addressing the esteemed Dr. Ciaran O'Boylan, Ph.D, world famous population geneticist. I didn't realize that you make other population geneticists like Dr. Michael Hammer and Dr. Cruciani who don't understand the truth behind your theories.

You are so superior to any other population geneticist that you don't even need any evidence to prove your advanced theories. I don't know how I didn't recognize the truth behind what you've written.

Thanks

[MMaddi]

You don't even understand my posts and yet you keep answering them. I am hoping that someday someone who is on the same as level I am will write to me.

Excuse me! I didn't realize that I was addressing the esteemed Dr. Ciaran O'Boylan, Ph.D, world famous population geneticist. I didn't realize that you make other population geneticists like Dr. Michael Hammer and Dr. Cruciani look like silly fools who don't understand the truth behind your theories.

You are so superior to any other population geneticist that you don't even need any evidence to prove your advanced theories of your paternal line being eternally Irish. I don't know how I didn't recognize the truth behind what you've written.

(Sarcasm alert. I actually think that you've lost all your marbles if you believe that you're on the level you think you're on.)

[Stevo]

Where is the R1b results from Yamna and CWC cultures? There is none so you are living in fantasy island. MTDNA H was found in ancient remains in Italy.

A better question for you is: Where is the R1b in any ancient remains in Western Europe earlier than the Copper Age?

In your post above, the H stands for herring, as in red herring.

[1798]

Yes, I wish FTDNA would have some moderation on these forums. He's continually hijacked threads that have nothing to do with R1b to promote his theories.

The latest example of that is this thread - http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=36136 - which has nothing to do with R1b at all. It's a thread about ancient DNA results from Hungary, from the Neolithic to Iron Age. Now the thread is about his beliefs about R1b in Europe, repeating the same arguments he's made in dozens of threads.

Since FTDNA does not see fit to curb him, every now and then I decide that not answering his posts may lead newbies to be misled. So, I answer him. Then I grow tired of doing that and stop doing it for a while.

You don't even understand my posts and yet you keep answering them. I am hoping that someday someone who is on the same as level I am will write to me.

[1798]

If R1b spread with the Neolithic Revolution in Europe, it no doubt would have been found at some Neolithic site by now. It hasn't.

The Brandt et al paper referred to above attributes the spread of R1b to the Bell Beaker culture, which is likely true, but Bell Beaker was Copper and Bronze Age and not Neolithic. Brandt et al has R1b associated with mtDNA H and spreading west from Spain, but that is not likely, since R1b is clearly eastern and likely of steppe origin.

Decorated horse phalanges characteristic of the Botai and Tersek peoples of the Kazakh steppe have been found at Beaker sites in Spain, and Marija Gimbutas, archaeologist and Indo-European expert, said the following:

Where is the R1b results from Yamna and CWC cultures? There is none so you are living in fantasy island. MTDNA H was found in ancient remains in Italy.

[MMaddi]

Honestly, his incessant posts on this topic are the main reason I don't post much at FTDNA's forum anymore and probably won't. It was just getting old. One couldn't post any news on y-dna without encountering the same old inane blather and downright trolling.

Yes, I wish FTDNA would have some moderation on these forums. He's continually hijacked threads that have nothing to do with R1b to promote his theories.

The latest example of that is this thread - http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=36136 - which has nothing to do with R1b at all. It's a thread about ancient DNA results from Hungary, from the Neolithic to Iron Age. Now the thread is about his beliefs about R1b in Europe, repeating the same arguments he's made in dozens of threads.

Since FTDNA does not see fit to curb him, every now and then I decide that not answering his posts may lead newbies to be misled. So, I answer him. Then I grow tired of doing that and stop doing it for a while.

[Stevo]

I agree entirely with your post. But the real answer to 1798's challenge/question is that no R1b has been found at any site in Europe - hunter-gatherer or agricultural - more than 4,600 years ago.

So, his insistence that R1b during the Neolithic in Europe was not in an agricultural society, but was among hunter-gatherers, is meant to back up his assertion/belief that R1b has been in Europe for at least 10,000 years. Of course, the lack of evidence for that does not stop him from believing what he believes.

Honestly, 1798's incessant posts on this topic are the main reason I don't post much at FTDNA's forum anymore and probably won't. It was just getting old. One couldn't post any news on y-dna without encountering the same old inane blather and downright trolling.

[MMaddi]

If R1b spread with the Neolithic Revolution in Europe, it no doubt would have been found at some Neolithic site by now. It hasn't.

The Brandt et al paper referred to above attributes the spread of R1b to the Bell Beaker culture, which is likely true, but Bell Beaker was Copper and Bronze Age and not Neolithic. Brandt et al has R1b associated with mtDNA H and spreading west from Spain, but that is not likely, since R1b is clearly eastern and likely of steppe origin.

Decorated horse phalanges characteristic of the Botai and Tersek peoples of the Kazakh steppe have been found at Beaker sites in Spain, and Marija Gimbutas, archaeologist and Indo-European expert, said the following:

I agree entirely with your post. But the real answer to 1798's challenge/question is that no R1b has been found at any site in Europe - hunter-gatherer or agricultural - more than 4,600 years ago.

So, his insistence that R1b during the Neolithic in Europe was not in an agricultural society, but was among hunter-gatherers, is meant to back up his assertion/belief that R1b has been in Europe for at least 10,000 years. Of course, the lack of evidence for that does not stop him from believing what he believes.

[Stevo]

If R1b spread with the Neolithic Revolution in Europe, it no doubt would have been found at some Neolithic site by now. It hasn't.

The Brandt et al paper referred to above attributes the spread of R1b to the Bell Beaker culture, which is likely true, but Bell Beaker was Copper and Bronze Age and not Neolithic. Brandt et al has R1b associated with mtDNA H and spreading west from Spain, but that is not likely, since R1b is clearly eastern and likely of steppe origin.

Decorated horse phalanges characteristic of the Botai and Tersek peoples of the Kazakh steppe have been found at Beaker sites in Spain, and Marija Gimbutas, archaeologist and Indo-European expert, said the following:

The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan charateristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millenium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction . . .
In western Hungary and nothwestern Yugoslavia, the Vucedol complex was followed by the Samogyvar-Vinkovci complex, the predecessor of the Bell Beaker people. Furthermore, the exodus of the horse-riding Bell Beaker people in the middle of the 3rd millenium, or soon thereafter, from the territories of the Vucedol complex, may not be unconnected with the constant threat from the east. They carried to the west Kurgan traditions in armament, social structure, and religion. The fact of paramount importance of Bell Beaker mobility is the presence of the horse. Seven Bell Beaker sites at Budapest in Hungary have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna.