The Neolithic Transition

[1798]

"With the development of agriculture, humans began to radically transform
the environments in which they lived. A growing portion of humans became
sedentary cultivators who cleared the lands around their settlements and
controlled the plants that grew and the animals that grazed on them. The
greater presence of humans was also apparent in the steadily growing size and
numbers of settlements. These were found both in areas that they had long
inhabited and in new regions that farming allowed them to settle. This great
increase in the number of sedentary farmers is primarily responsible for the
leap in human population during the Neolithic transition. For tens of
thousands of years before agriculture was developed, the total number of
humans had fluctuated between an estimated five and eight million persons. By
4000 B.C., after four or five millennia of farming, their number had risen to
60 or 70 million. Hunting-and-gathering bands managed to subsist in the zones
between cultivated areas and continued to war and trade with sedentary
peoples. But villages and cultivated fields became the dominant features of
human habitation over much of the globe."

I think that the this population explosion is relative to the mushrooming of the R1b Y-lines after the birth of P311. If this happened in western Europe it would give a TMRCA of 6000 for P311. If it is relative to P311 in the Middle east then the TMRCA would be 6000-10,000 ybp.

[1798]

There are now 255 U106 BigY results and the average number of SNPs are 36 under U106. If we allow 16 each on average for private SNPs that is 4,100 SNPs in the BC era under U106. I know that some are related and in a lot of the the same SNP branches but if we had 2,550 BigY tests the number would be 41,000 possible branches.

[1798]

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...known_unknowns
Brandt et al

This new paper shows that there is a link between R1b Y and MTDNA H. It is not rocket science. R1b and H make up 40% of the dna subhaplogroups in western Europe.
I think that the scientists are thinking of testing the "Red Lady of Paviland". Then we will see the autosomal dna of the Northern Europeans before the LGM and I believe it will show strong links to K14.

[1798]

"With the development of agriculture, humans began to radically transform
the environments in which they lived. A growing portion of humans became
sedentary cultivators who cleared the lands around their settlements and
controlled the plants that grew and the animals that grazed on them. The
greater presence of humans was also apparent in the steadily growing size and
numbers of settlements. These were found both in areas that they had long
inhabited and in new regions that farming allowed them to settle. This great
increase in the number of sedentary farmers is primarily responsible for the
leap in human population during the Neolithic transition. For tens of
thousands of years before agriculture was developed, the total number of
humans had fluctuated between an estimated five and eight million persons. By
4000 B.C., after four or five millennia of farming, their number had risen to
60 or 70 million. Hunting-and-gathering bands managed to subsist in the zones
between cultivated areas and continued to war and trade with sedentary
peoples. But villages and cultivated fields became the dominant features of
human habitation over much of the globe."

I think that the this population explosion is relative to the mushrooming of the R1b Y-lines after the birth of P311. If this happened in western Europe it would give a TMRCA of 6000 for P311. If it is relative to P311 in the Middle east then the TMRCA would be 6000-10,000 ybp.

If the TMRCA for P312 and U106 is only 4,500 ybp, why did they remain Mesolithic hunter-gatherers for 1500 years while the rest of the haplogroups in Europe had taken up farming?

[MMaddi]

If the TMRCA for P312 and U106 is only 4,500 ybp, why did they remain Mesolithic hunter-gatherers for 1500 years while the rest of the haplogroups in Europe had taken up farming?

Huh? What evidence do you have that P312 and U106 "remain[ed] Mesolithic hunter-gatherers for 1500 years while the rest of the haplogroups in Europe had taken up farming"? Is there some study which states this to be the case? Or is this merely an assertion/belief on your part?

[1798]

Huh? What evidence do you have that P312 and U106 "remain[ed] Mesolithic hunter-gatherers for 1500 years while the rest of the haplogroups in Europe had taken up farming"? Is there some study which states this to be the case? Or is this merely an assertion/belief on your part?

"Early agriculture is believed to have originated and become widespread in Southwest Asia around 10,000–9,000 BP, though earlier individual sites have been identified. The Fertile Crescent region of Southwest Asia is the centre of domestication for three cereals (einkorn wheat, emmer wheat and barley) four legumes (lentil, pea, bitter vetch and chickpea) and flax.[39] The Mediterranean climate consists of a long dry season with a short period of rain, which may have favored small plants with large seeds, like wheat and barley.[citation needed] The Fertile Crescent also had a large area of varied geographical settings and altitudes and this variety may have made agriculture more profitable for former hunter-gatherers in this region in comparison with other areas with a similar climate .[citation needed]

Finds of large quantities of seeds and a grinding stone at the paleolithic site of Ohalo II in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee, dated to around 19,400 BP has shown some of the earliest evidence for advanced planning of plant food consumption and has led Ehud Weiss, an archeologist, to suggest that humans at Ohalo II processed the grain before consumption.[40][41] Tell Aswad is oldest site of agriculture with domesticated emmer wheat dated by Willem van Zeist and his assistant Johanna Bakker-Heeres to 8800 BC."

"Using cemetery data, it has been possible to identify the signature of a previously unknown demographic process associated with the transition from a hunter-gatherer to an agricultural economy. Characterized by a dramatic increase in the birth rate, and consequently of the population growth rate, over a period of less than a millennium following the transition to agriculture, this global demographic process has been termed the Neolithic Demographic Transition (NDT). The NDT signature has so far been detected in Europe, North America, Mesoamerica and South America."

The date for the Neolithic in Europe is 6000 ybp. If all the branches under P311 were born 4,500 years ago, that was 1500 years after the Neolithic so the were not part of it.

[MMaddi]

The date for the Neolithic in Europe is 6000 ybp. If all the branches under P311 were born 4,500 years ago, that was 1500 years after the Neolithic so the were not part of it.

I see. I think it would be necessary for you to prove that P312 and U106 were in Europe more than 5,000 years ago to prove that they were part of a hunter-gatherer European population that hadn't yet adopted an agricultural lifestyle.

The problem, as many have pointed out to you, is that there is absolutely no evidence at all in DNA results from ancient European remains that any sort of R1b was in Europe before 4,600 years ago. It's also been pointed out to you that there's a lot of good reason to believe that R1b entered Europe in the Bronze Age, which came after the introduction of agriculture to Europe during the Neolithic.

You can try every little trick in the book to "prove" your basic obsession that R1b has been in Europe for 10,000 years, but until there's some actual DNA evidence, all you've done is build a house of cards. This latest contention on your part is clever, but it's merely another card piled on top of the others.

[1798]

I see. I think it would be necessary for you to prove that P312 and U106 were in Europe more than 5,000 years ago to prove that they were part of a hunter-gatherer European population that hadn't yet adopted an agricultural lifestyle.

The problem, as many have pointed out to you, is that there is absolutely no evidence at all in DNA results from ancient European remains that any sort of R1b was in Europe before 4,600 years ago. It's also been pointed out to you that there's a lot of good reason to believe that R1b entered Europe in the Bronze Age, which came after the introduction of agriculture to Europe during the Neolithic.

You can try every little trick in the book to "prove" your basic obsession that R1b has been in Europe for 10,000 years, but until there's some actual DNA evidence, all you've done is build a house of cards. This latest contention on your part is clever, but it's merely another card piled on top of the others.

What is the good reason? What continent did R1b come from?
So you are saying that R1b was not part of the Neolithic Transition. Why?

[N21163]

I see. I think it would be necessary for you to prove that P312 and U106 were in Europe more than 5,000 years ago to prove that they were part of a hunter-gatherer European population that hadn't yet adopted an agricultural lifestyle.

The problem, as many have pointed out to you, is that there is absolutely no evidence at all in DNA results from ancient European remains that any sort of R1b was in Europe before 4,600 years ago. It's also been pointed out to you that there's a lot of good reason to believe that R1b entered Europe in the Bronze Age, which came after the introduction of agriculture to Europe during the Neolithic.

You can try every little trick in the book to "prove" your basic obsession that R1b has been in Europe for 10,000 years, but until there's some actual DNA evidence, all you've done is build a house of cards. This latest contention on your part is clever, but it's merely another card piled on top of the others.

Agreed.

[1798]

Agreed.

Did V88 go from Africa to Europe or from Europe to Africa 13,000-15,000 ybp. A lot of it is found in Cameroon.

[MMaddi]

What is the good reason? What continent did R1b come from?
So you are saying that R1b was not part of the Neolithic Transition. Why?

Since you ignore any evidence presented to you, why should I waste the time finding a citation?

[MMaddi]

Did V88 go from Africa to Europe or from Europe to Africa 13,000-15,000 ybp. A lot of it is found in Cameroon.

In this case, I will present a citation, which is so clear that only you could deny what it shows - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg2009231a.pdf.

This is the already classic 2010 study by Cruciani, a leading population geneticist and the one who discovered V88. Here are relevant quotes from the abstract:

"Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes... A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis."

So, if you're suggesting that V88 originated in western Europe and migrated across the Straits of Gibraltar to Africa, the leading expert and discoverer of V88 disagrees with you. He clearly wrote that V88 migrated from the Middle East (Asia) to Africa.

At least you're making it transparent how willing you are to misrepresent the evidence of R1b and its subclades in relation to Europe. The strangest thing is that you may actually believe what you are trying to convince us is the case with V88!

[Stevo]

If R1b spread with the Neolithic Revolution in Europe, it no doubt would have been found at some Neolithic site by now. It hasn't.

The Brandt et al paper referred to above attributes the spread of R1b to the Bell Beaker culture, which is likely true, but Bell Beaker was Copper and Bronze Age and not Neolithic. Brandt et al has R1b associated with mtDNA H and spreading west from Spain, but that is not likely, since R1b is clearly eastern and likely of steppe origin.

Decorated horse phalanges characteristic of the Botai and Tersek peoples of the Kazakh steppe have been found at Beaker sites in Spain, and Marija Gimbutas, archaeologist and Indo-European expert, said the following:

The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan charateristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millenium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction . . .
In western Hungary and nothwestern Yugoslavia, the Vucedol complex was followed by the Samogyvar-Vinkovci complex, the predecessor of the Bell Beaker people. Furthermore, the exodus of the horse-riding Bell Beaker people in the middle of the 3rd millenium, or soon thereafter, from the territories of the Vucedol complex, may not be unconnected with the constant threat from the east. They carried to the west Kurgan traditions in armament, social structure, and religion. The fact of paramount importance of Bell Beaker mobility is the presence of the horse. Seven Bell Beaker sites at Budapest in Hungary have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna.

[MMaddi]

If R1b spread with the Neolithic Revolution in Europe, it no doubt would have been found at some Neolithic site by now. It hasn't.

The Brandt et al paper referred to above attributes the spread of R1b to the Bell Beaker culture, which is likely true, but Bell Beaker was Copper and Bronze Age and not Neolithic. Brandt et al has R1b associated with mtDNA H and spreading west from Spain, but that is not likely, since R1b is clearly eastern and likely of steppe origin.

Decorated horse phalanges characteristic of the Botai and Tersek peoples of the Kazakh steppe have been found at Beaker sites in Spain, and Marija Gimbutas, archaeologist and Indo-European expert, said the following:

I agree entirely with your post. But the real answer to 1798's challenge/question is that no R1b has been found at any site in Europe - hunter-gatherer or agricultural - more than 4,600 years ago.

So, his insistence that R1b during the Neolithic in Europe was not in an agricultural society, but was among hunter-gatherers, is meant to back up his assertion/belief that R1b has been in Europe for at least 10,000 years. Of course, the lack of evidence for that does not stop him from believing what he believes.

[Stevo]

I agree entirely with your post. But the real answer to 1798's challenge/question is that no R1b has been found at any site in Europe - hunter-gatherer or agricultural - more than 4,600 years ago.

So, his insistence that R1b during the Neolithic in Europe was not in an agricultural society, but was among hunter-gatherers, is meant to back up his assertion/belief that R1b has been in Europe for at least 10,000 years. Of course, the lack of evidence for that does not stop him from believing what he believes.

Honestly, 1798's incessant posts on this topic are the main reason I don't post much at FTDNA's forum anymore and probably won't. It was just getting old. One couldn't post any news on y-dna without encountering the same old inane blather and downright trolling.