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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by GST View Post
    We have a very small amount of ancestry from Paleolithic Europeans who retreated to ice age refugia, but it's clear from the DNA evidence that there were multiple waves of migration into Europe from the Near East farmers and Steppe pastoralists in the Neolithic and metal ages. Of course, some of those Steppe pastorlists and Near East farmers may also have been partly descended from Ice-Age refugees. Much of the U5 in Europe today might be from Neolithic farmers and herders. I expect we will get more clarity on the amount contributed by each group when we have more ancient autosomal DNA.
    Much of the U5 in Europe today might be from Neolithic farmers and herders who were originally hunter-gatherers in western Europe.
    R1b group spent 12,000 years as Ice-Age refugees but which refuge were they in? That is the big question.

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by GST View Post
    We have a very small amount of ancestry from Paleolithic Europeans who retreated to ice age refugia, but it's clear from the DNA evidence that there were multiple waves of migration into Europe from the Near East farmers and Steppe pastoralists in the Neolithic and metal ages. Of course, some of those Steppe pastorlists and Near East farmers may also have been partly descended from Ice-Age refugees. Much of the U5 in Europe today might be from Neolithic farmers and herders. I expect we will get more clarity on the amount contributed by each group when we have more ancient autosomal DNA.
    There were multiple waves of migration into Europe from 60,000 years ago when our ancestors first left Africa.

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  • GST
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    We northern Europeans are the descendants of the Ice-Age refugees. I am absolutely certain of that.
    We have a very small amount of ancestry from Paleolithic Europeans who retreated to ice age refugia, but it's clear from the DNA evidence that there were multiple waves of migration into Europe from the Near East farmers and Steppe pastoralists in the Neolithic and metal ages. Of course, some of those Steppe pastorlists and Near East farmers may also have been partly descended from Ice-Age refugees. Much of the U5 in Europe today might be from Neolithic farmers and herders. I expect we will get more clarity on the amount contributed by each group when we have more ancient autosomal DNA.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by GST View Post
    Modern humans had spread into northern Europe, Russia and Siberia before the LGM, and there are two mtDNA haplogroup U5 samples dated at 31,155 years ago at Dolni Vestonice in the Czech Republic. This suggests continuity of Paleolithic humans in Europe, i.e., they retreated to southern refugia at the time of the LGM and then expanded north again as the ice retreated.
    We northern Europeans are the descendants of the Ice-Age refugees. I am absolutely certain of that.

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  • GST
    replied
    Modern humans had spread into northern Europe, Russia and Siberia before the LGM, and there are two mtDNA haplogroup U5 samples dated at 31,155 years ago at Dolni Vestonice in the Czech Republic. This suggests continuity of Paleolithic humans in Europe, i.e., they retreated to southern refugia at the time of the LGM and then expanded north again as the ice retreated.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    The oldest one was found in Germany and the one in Siberia found beside the Mal'ta boy was 24,000 ybp. People moved up and down the Danube. It wasn't all one way traffic.

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  • dna
    replied
    Originally posted by dna View Post
    658-687 kilometres of Danube are in today's Germany
    Commas do count Surprise, surprise (This embarrassment is supposed to be a red face, not a smiley face...)

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by S9 H9 View Post
    I had forgotten about the Venus, and it is a good example (along with other items from the cave) of early art. Unfortunately we don't know who made these items, or from where they originated.

    It has been proposed before that one path for modern humans to move up (from the Black Sea area) into Northern Europe was along the Danube, and Schelklingen, Germany isn't that far from the Danube.
    The oldest one was found in Germany and the one in Siberia found beside the Mal'ta boy was 24,000 ybp. People moved up and down the Danube. It wasn't all one way traffic.

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  • dna
    replied
    Originally posted by S9 H9 View Post
    [----] Germany isn't that far from the Danube.
    658-687 kilometres of Danube are in today's Germany

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  • S9 H9
    replied
    I had forgotten about the Venus, and it is a good example (along with other items from the cave) of early art. Unfortunately we don't know who made these items, or from where they originated.

    It has been proposed before that one path for modern humans to move up (from the Black Sea area) into Northern Europe was along the Danube, and Schelklingen, Germany isn't that far from the Danube.

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by S9 H9 View Post
    The last glacial maximum was a bit over 20,000 years ago. I am not aware of any modern human remains (either bones, or tools, etc.) from Northern Europe that predate this. If you know of any paper that gives evidence otherwise I'd be interested in reading it.

    http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancie...hic-era-001548
    "The Venus figurines is a term given to a collection of prehistoric statuettes of women made during the Paleolithic Period, mostly found in Europe, but with finds as far as Siberia. To date, more than 200 of the figurines have been found, all of whom are portrayed with similar physical attributes, including curvaceous bodies with large breasts, bottoms, abdomen, hips, and thighs, and usually tapered at the top and bottom. The heads are often of relatively small size and devoid of detail, and most are missing hands and feet. Some appear to represent pregnant women, while others show no such signs. There have been many different interpretations of the figurines, but none based on any kind of solid evidence. Like many prehistoric artifacts, the cultural meaning may never be known. The Paleolithic period lasted from around 30,000 BC to 10,000 BC and is characterised by the emergence of human creativity. Man-made artifacts from this period show the very earliest signs of workmanship, from small personal adornments and cave paintings to the prevalent Venus figurines, which represent the earliest known works of figurative art. The figurines were carved from all manner of different materials, ranging from soft stone (such as steatite, calcite, or limestone) to bone, ivory, or clay. The latter type are among the earliest ceramic works yet discovered. The oldest statuette was uncovered in 2008 in Germany. The "Venus of Hohle Fels”, as the figure has since been called, was carved from a mammoth’s tusk and dates to at least 35,000 years old. "

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  • T E Peterman
    replied
    Where were the Cro-Magnon, Aurignacian, Magdalenian & Gravettian sites located? I think the answer is France & these were from before the LGM, but I'm not sure how far to the north in France they were.

    Timothy Peterman

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  • S9 H9
    replied
    The last glacial maximum was a bit over 20,000 years ago. I am not aware of any modern human remains (either bones, or tools, etc.) from Northern Europe that predate this. If you know of any paper that gives evidence otherwise I'd be interested in reading it.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by S9 H9 View Post
    The time period of modern humans into northern Europe do not predate the last glacial maximum, if by "north" we mean higher in latitude than the Alps, at least from any paper of which I am aware. At the time of the last glacial maximum we moderns apparently hung out in the Balkan area and around the Black Sea, and then followed the rivers up to the north as the ice melted.

    There is evidence of Neanderthals of course living in Europe before the last glacial maximum. And much earlier (during an interglacial period during the Pleistocene) H. heidelbergensis left remains and evidence in northern Europe.
    Are you saying that there were no modern humans living in northern Europe before 25,000 ybp? The LGM is supposed to have lasted from 25,000-13,000 ybp.

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  • S9 H9
    replied
    The time period of modern humans into northern Europe do not predate the last glacial maximum, if by "north" we mean higher in latitude than the Alps, at least from any paper of which I am aware. At the time of the last glacial maximum we moderns apparently hung out in the Balkan area and around the Black Sea, and then followed the rivers up to the north as the ice melted.

    There is evidence of Neanderthals of course living in Europe before the last glacial maximum. And much earlier (during an interglacial period during the Pleistocene) H. heidelbergensis left remains and evidence in northern Europe.

    Leave a comment:

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