DNA Results from Asturias

[1798]

Your subgroup, it's downstream of P311 isn't it ?

Why would you expect to find it in the Steppes, and how does the lack of it their prove anything about how P311 arrived in Western Europe ?

There are lots of surviving branches of Q in Eurasia and one of the branches is found among the NA. That's how simple it is. Where are the surviving branches of P311 in the Steppe and the Black Sea? L11 the father of P311 is found mostly in western Europe. L150* is also found mostly among western Europeans etc,etc.

[Subwoofer]

The reality is it didn't happen. The subgroup that I belong to is around 5000 ybp and there is not one tester from the Steppe.

Your subgroup, it's downstream of P311 isn't it ?

Why would you expect to find it in the Steppes, and how does the lack of it their prove anything about how P311 arrived in Western Europe ?

[ironroad41]

An admixed individual with figurines found throughout Europe and Siberia is not evidence that R was in western Europe in the Paleolithic or the Mesolithic periods. You need a scientific study reporting a ancient remains to have been found in western Europe and to have been tested positive for R. Until then you only have a hypothesis that goes against the one backed by Dr. Michael Hammer and Dr. Spencer Wells.

Wells and Hammer have been back and forth on this issue. Consider the wooly mammoth, remains have only been found in Siberia, but there are pictures on Cave walls of western Europe of these animals. The reality is that the Mammoths and other creatures travelled from Europe to Siberia in a Northern corridor as the climate changed the food supply in WE. I believe (posit) that inhabitants of WE Europe followed the food chain to Siberia. I also think there was some R1B in the group who then migrated S and finally W in the Neolithic. JMHO!

[1798]

Yes, I think he may have needed a little help : )

The reality is it didn't happen. The subgroup that I belong to is around 5000 ybp and there is not one tester from the Steppe.

[Subwoofer]

It is difficult for me to take on board the hypothesis that one P311 man rode into western Europe and populated it 5000 years ago.

Yes, I think he may have needed a little help : )

[1798]

An admixed individual with figurines found throughout Europe and Siberia is not evidence that R was in western Europe in the Paleolithic or the Mesolithic periods. You need a scientific study reporting a ancient remains to have been found in western Europe and to have been tested positive for R. Until then you only have a hypothesis that goes against the one backed by Dr. Michael Hammer and Dr. Spencer Wells.

It is difficult for me to take on board the hypothesis that one P311 man rode into western Europe and populated it 5000 years ago.

[Armando]

The Mal’ta boy was 3 to 4 years old and was buried under a stone slab wearing an ivory diadem, a bead necklace and a bird-shaped pendant. Elsewhere at the same site about 30 Venus figurines were found of the kind produced by the Upper Paleolithic cultures of Europe. The remains were excavated by Russian archaeologists over a 20-year period ending in 1958 and stored in museums in St. Petersburg."

Who brought the idea of the Venus figurines to Siberia from Europe?

An admixed individual with figurines found throughout Europe and Siberia is not evidence that R was in western Europe in the Paleolithic or the Mesolithic periods. You need a scientific study reporting a ancient remains to have been found in western Europe and to have been tested positive for R. Until then you only have a hypothesis that goes against the one backed by Dr. Michael Hammer and Dr. Spencer Wells.

[1798]

Mal'ta boy had admixture from different groups. The paternal line being from Siberia which is in North Asia and descending from people from South Asia which is where the parent haplogroup P is from. The admixture results clearly show he has South Asian ancestry and Native American ancestry. R* is closely related to Q which also descends from P and went east over the Bering Strait.

Read the Mal'ta supplement and look at the K9 results on page 55. The green is found highest in India. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ry-information

The most important point is that you do not have proof of R being in western Europe in the Paleolithic or the Mesolithic.

The Mal’ta boy was 3 to 4 years old and was buried under a stone slab wearing an ivory diadem, a bead necklace and a bird-shaped pendant. Elsewhere at the same site about 30 Venus figurines were found of the kind produced by the Upper Paleolithic cultures of Europe. The remains were excavated by Russian archaeologists over a 20-year period ending in 1958 and stored in museums in St. Petersburg."

Who brought the idea of the Venus figurines to Siberia from Europe?

[Armando]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/sc...anted=all&_r=0


"The first is that the boy’s DNA matches that of Western Europeans, showing that during the last Ice Age people from Europe had reached farther east across Eurasia than previously supposed. Though none of the Mal’ta boy’s skin or hair survives, his genes suggest he would have had brown hair, brown eyes and freckled skin.

The second surprise is that his DNA also matches a large proportion — about 25 percent — of the DNA of living Native Americans. The first people to arrive in the Americas have long been assumed to have descended from Siberian populations related to East Asians. It now seems that they may be a mixture between the Western Europeans who had reached Siberia and an East Asian population.

The Mal’ta boy was 3 to 4 years old and was buried under a stone slab wearing an ivory diadem, a bead necklace and a bird-shaped pendant. Elsewhere at the same site about 30 Venus figurines were found of the kind produced by the Upper Paleolithic cultures of Europe. The remains were excavated by Russian archaeologists over a 20-year period ending in 1958 and stored in museums in St. Petersburg."

It seems to me that Mal'ta boy was a European Ice Age refugee.

Mal'ta boy had admixture from different groups. The paternal line being from Siberia which is in North Asia and descending from people from South Asia which is where the parent haplogroup P is from. The admixture results clearly show he has South Asian ancestry and Native American ancestry. R* is closely related to Q which also descends from P and went east over the Bering Strait.

Read the Mal'ta supplement and look at the K9 results on page 55. The green is found highest in India. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ry-information

The most important point is that you do not have proof of R being in western Europe in the Paleolithic or the Mesolithic.

[T E Peterman]

Considering that R & Q are sibling clades, the discovery that Mal'ta boy shared genetic affinities with Native Americans comes as no surprise.

The Ancient North Eurasian population will likely be recognized very soon as a distinct population in its own right. Some Europeans (such as myself) are about 15% ANE. Native Americans probably contain an even higher percentage. I wouldn't be surprised if inland East Asians have some as well.

Some linguists have proposed a super language family, sometimes called Eurasiatic, that contains the various Turanian branches (Altaic, Turkic, Uralic, Finno-Ugric), as well as Manchurian & Indo-European, with Amerind being an outlier. Chances are, these languages today are remnants of an earlier language spoken many thousands of years ago by the Ancient North Eurasian population.

At the Family Tree DNA conference last weekend, I understand that there was a discussion or seminar on this matter, with the dots connected, it is likely that R1b & R1a represent the westward extension of this population. After dometicating horses & mastering bronze, Europe was overrun with a new population that introduced Indo-European languages about 4500 years ago. The population was Ancient North Eurasian & the y-DNA haplogroups it introduced were R1a & R1b.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

AFIK, there have only been two remains analyzed which were, as you say , some form of I. But, can you explain to me how R1b became the most prominent hg in north western Europe?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/sc...anted=all&_r=0


"The first is that the boy’s DNA matches that of Western Europeans, showing that during the last Ice Age people from Europe had reached farther east across Eurasia than previously supposed. Though none of the Mal’ta boy’s skin or hair survives, his genes suggest he would have had brown hair, brown eyes and freckled skin.

The second surprise is that his DNA also matches a large proportion — about 25 percent — of the DNA of living Native Americans. The first people to arrive in the Americas have long been assumed to have descended from Siberian populations related to East Asians. It now seems that they may be a mixture between the Western Europeans who had reached Siberia and an East Asian population.

The Mal’ta boy was 3 to 4 years old and was buried under a stone slab wearing an ivory diadem, a bead necklace and a bird-shaped pendant. Elsewhere at the same site about 30 Venus figurines were found of the kind produced by the Upper Paleolithic cultures of Europe. The remains were excavated by Russian archaeologists over a 20-year period ending in 1958 and stored in museums in St. Petersburg."

It seems to me that Mal'ta boy was a European Ice Age refugee.

[Armando]

AFIK, there have only been two remains analyzed which were, as you say , some form of I. But, can you explain to me how R1b became the most prominent hg in north western Europe?

I don't need to. You are the one saying it has been there the whole time and you have no evidence.

[ironroad41]

Yes, Hg I could have lived there. That is what the remains of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers have tested positive for.

Until you have proof that R1b was there all you have is a hypothesis without evidence and only a few people as yourself are clinging on to it.

AFIK, there have only been two remains analyzed which were, as you say , some form of I. But, can you explain to me how R1b became the most prominent hg in north western Europe?

[1798]

The Climatological data suggests that from 9K BC to about the time of the great flood c. 6K BC, their was a large E-W corridor between Europe and northern Asia. Where did the descendants of the R migrate to? South was not very good in those days. Cool, wet, climate. There is a 16K year hole in the records of R and R1b between Mal'ta boy and the start of the northern warming of Europe. Further, we have the great eraser of life called the great flood, which appears to have redistributed artifacts and life when it occurred, from doggerland to the Black Sea. As I mentioned elsewhere, there isn't any evidence for any Y Hgs during the 9K BC to 6K BC in northern Europe, but someone had lived there since artifacts have been found!

There is not one ounce of evidence to show that P311 the father of all western Europeans today was born in the Steppe or the around the Black Sea.
L11 was a hunter gatherer which I have already stated in other posts because of the 1000 year bottleneck.

[Armando]

The Climatological data suggests that from 9K BC to about the time of the great flood c. 6K BC, their was a large E-W corridor between Europe and northern Asia. Where did the descendants of the R migrate to? South was not very good in those days. Cool, wet, climate. There is a 16K year hole in the records of R and R1b between Mal'ta boy and the start of the northern warming of Europe. Further, we have the great eraser of life called the great flood, which appears to have redistributed artifacts and life when it occurred, from doggerland to the Black Sea. As I mentioned elsewhere, there isn't any evidence for any Y Hgs during the 9K BC to 6K BC in northern Europe, but someone had lived there since artifacts have been found!

Yes, Hg I could have lived there. That is what the remains of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers have tested positive for.

Until you have proof that R1b was there all you have is a hypothesis without evidence and only a few people as yourself are clinging on to it.