DNA Results from Asturias

[1798]

Are you saying 4800 ybp to the MRCA of P311? If so, I would agree with that. U106 & P312 should be just a bit younger.

Whatever the case may be, all of those hundreds of millions of European men who are P311+ are patrilineally descended from him.

Timothy Peterman

I am referring to U106>Z381>Z156>S5520 and the 36 SNP differences I have with a group within S5520. So 36 Big-Y SNPs at 136 years per SNP is the TMRCA for the group.

[T E Peterman]

Are you saying 4800 ybp to the MRCA of P311? If so, I would agree with that. U106 & P312 should be just a bit younger.

Whatever the case may be, all of those hundreds of millions of European men who are P311+ are patrilineally descended from him.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

A fair number. My project has over 70 U106+ men.

Do you think that 70 is a lot out of millions of eastern European men? What downstream branches do they belong to and why do you think that it was one way traffic from east to west for 60,000 years?

[1798]

1798's posts, whether in the Recreation Room or another section of the forums, are solely meant to display his theories to explain why it must be that his paternal line has been in Ireland for at least 10,000 years. In pursuit of that goal, he has overturned everything that scientists like Dr. Hammer have come in the last few years to understand about R1b in Europe.

The scientists base their understanding on actual testing results, both from ancient remains and modern people. 1798 bases his posts on what he wishes to be true.

Perhaps he considers that recreation, but I believe that he's 100% serious about what he posts. He thinks that what he posts here doesn't have to pass any sort of test requiring actual credible evidence. But then that's the character of his posts wherever they appear.

It seems to bother you when I post or else you wouldn't be answering them. Again you are cherry picking. You have picked out one scientist because you are happy with the things that he is saying.

[MMaddi]

Chuckle.

EDIT: I now realize that this thread is in the Recreation Room and thus is not intended to be a serious discussion. (Or perhaps a moderator moved the thread to the Recreation Room for precisely that reason.)

1798's posts, whether in the Recreation Room or another section of the forums, are solely meant to display his theories to explain why it must be that his paternal line has been in Ireland for at least 10,000 years. In pursuit of that goal, he has overturned everything that scientists like Dr. Hammer have come in the last few years to understand about R1b in Europe.

The scientists base their understanding on actual testing results, both from ancient remains and modern people. 1798 bases his posts on what he wishes to be true.

Perhaps he considers that recreation, but I believe that he's 100% serious about what he posts. He thinks that what he posts here doesn't have to pass any sort of test requiring actual credible evidence. But then that's the character of his posts wherever they appear.

[lgmayka]

None as far as I know and they shouldn't waste their time because if they do test positive they will know that they are descended from a western European.

Chuckle. Circular logic is unscientific.

If a European clade is truly 4800 years old, it might have arisen--and might still be found--almost anywhere in Europe, or even beyond. Only comprehensive, dense sampling can hope to answer such a question.

EDIT: I now realize that this thread is in the Recreation Room and thus is not intended to be a serious discussion. (Or perhaps a moderator moved the thread to the Recreation Room for precisely that reason.)

[lgmayka]

How many Eastern Europeans are U106 tested?

A fair number. My project has over 70 U106+ men.

[1798]

What percentage of Eastern Europeans ("steppe people" in your terms) have actually tested for this brand-new subclade you have just found?

None as far as I know and they shouldn't waste their time because if they do test positive they will know that they are descended from a western European.

[1798]

What percentage of Eastern Europeans ("steppe people" in your terms) have actually tested for this brand-new subclade you have just found?

How many Eastern Europeans are U106 tested?

[lgmayka]

In the new subclade that we have found all of the testers so far are Irish and Scottish.

What percentage of Eastern Europeans ("steppe people" in your terms) have actually tested for this brand-new subclade you have just found?

[1798]

Regarding P311... The question of geography isn't relevant to the fact that 1798 finds incredulous.

The mutation that defines P311 happened once in one man & all men, anywhere, who are P311+, are patrilineal descendants of that man.

The same can be said for the upstream clades: L11, L51, L23, M269, P297 & M343, as well as the SNPs that define P1, P (aka K2b2), K2b, K2, K... going all the way back to A00.

P311 must be younger than L11 & each of the above younger than the one listed afterward. The best estimate for WHEN the P311 mutation occurred is 4,500 to 5,000 years ago. If a P311+ result were found in an ancient sample older than 5,500 years ago, regardless of where, various theories would have to be adjusted somewhat. If a P311+ result were found that was say 10,000 years old, a radical revision would be in order. But we can't just assume that these will be found. The only thing that we can use until such an ancient sample is found is the estimate provided by experts like Hammer & others.

When we bring geography into the picture, there is a strong indication that P & P1 emerged from a population expansion in southeast Asia. Survivors that are P or P1 have been found among the Aeta in the Philippines. Seems most likely that R & Q emerged in a southeast Asian population that was following the Pacific coast northward. One can infer that somewhere around Korea or Japan, there was a split; one group continued to follow the coast northward, right into Beringia; the other group worked its way inland & found a new home on the eastern end of southern Siberia. At present, this appears to be the most parsimonious interpretation. By 25,000 years ago, the group had moved as far inland as where the Mal'ta boy was found.

Timothy Peterman

I can only look at the evidence from the branch that I belong to. In the new subclade that we have found all of the testers so far are Irish and Scottish. Dr Ian Mc Donald reckons that there are 136 years per Big-Y SNP so that would give our group a TMRCA of around 4,800. If there are testers from other regions that have the same SNP then we will take that on board.

[T E Peterman]

Regarding P311... The question of geography isn't relevant to the fact that 1798 finds incredulous.

The mutation that defines P311 happened once in one man & all men, anywhere, who are P311+, are patrilineal descendants of that man.

The same can be said for the upstream clades: L11, L51, L23, M269, P297 & M343, as well as the SNPs that define P1, P (aka K2b2), K2b, K2, K... going all the way back to A00.

P311 must be younger than L11 & each of the above younger than the one listed afterward. The best estimate for WHEN the P311 mutation occurred is 4,500 to 5,000 years ago. If a P311+ result were found in an ancient sample older than 5,500 years ago, regardless of where, various theories would have to be adjusted somewhat. If a P311+ result were found that was say 10,000 years old, a radical revision would be in order. But we can't just assume that these will be found. The only thing that we can use until such an ancient sample is found is the estimate provided by experts like Hammer & others.

When we bring geography into the picture, there is a strong indication that P & P1 emerged from a population expansion in southeast Asia. Survivors that are P or P1 have been found among the Aeta in the Philippines. Seems most likely that R & Q emerged in a southeast Asian population that was following the Pacific coast northward. One can infer that somewhere around Korea or Japan, there was a split; one group continued to follow the coast northward, right into Beringia; the other group worked its way inland & found a new home on the eastern end of southern Siberia. At present, this appears to be the most parsimonious interpretation. By 25,000 years ago, the group had moved as far inland as where the Mal'ta boy was found.

Timothy Peterman

[PDHOTLEN]

I noticed, a long time ago when I was browsing around, that the Castro surname is/was found in Asturias. Maybe you guys are related to Fidel?

[lgmayka]

My own project does have Ukrainians who have tested
DF27+ Z196-
U152+ L2+ L20- Z49-
U106+ L48+ Z2+
U106+ Z18- Z381- L217-
U106+ L1+

Of these, the 1st, 2nd, and 4th have no Western European matches (on the Y-DNA Matches page) beyond 25 markers.

[lgmayka]

Where are the surviving branches of P311 in the Steppe and the Black Sea?

Those regions are still very poorly sampled. Besides, a man of those regions who gets an R-M269 result may often discontinue DNA testing because he is erroneously "assured" that his patrilineage must be due to recent Western European admixture.

My own project does have Ukrainians who have tested
DF27+ Z196-
U152+ L2+ L20- Z49-
U106+ L48+ Z2+
U106+ Z18- Z381- L217-
U106+ L1+