DNA Results from Asturias

[1798]

That's not how the deep clade test will work for a major haplogroup like U106. At present, myself and the other R1-U106 project administrators are trying to determine which are the most important SNPs under U106 to submit as candidates for a U106 deep clade test.

Actually, given that we have identified 243 subclades (SNPs shared by 2 or more members), it will be necessary to have two deep clade tests for the U106 haplogroup. One will be for those who are L48+ (representing about half of the haplogroup) and the other will be for those who are U106+/L48-. That's the only way we can fit the most important SNPs in a deep clade test.

Do the math. Two tests with 60 SNPs each means that the tests will cover about half of the 243 known subclades. We'll have to choose the 120 SNPs defining the most prevalent subclades. Perhaps in the future when the deep clade tests are more established, we can carve out another couple of deep clade tests that get more specific and cover the uncovered subclades.

My point is that you should not expect a deep clade test for all the subclades of Z156, at least not in the initial deep clade test offerings.

I thought that it would apply to all projects.The smaller projects will benefit more.
The admins of the projects should have a good idea which subgroup a tester belongs to.

[lgmayka]

Lepenski Vir is a Mesolithic site in Serbia.
Brusco is a Scottish name.
Some of the men who are closest to both their haplotypes have names that are found in the Isles.

Chuckle.

Łopieński is a characteristically Slavic surname. The Slavic expansion has nothing to do with the Mesolithic, in Serbia or anywhere else.

Bruski is also Slavic or perhaps Slavicized German, but certainly not Scottish.

Łopieński has no near-matches at all (on his Y-DNA Matches page) beyond the meaningless 25-marker level.

At 67 markers, Bruski has two distance-5 near-matches with the (characteristically Slavic) Kimenkowski ancestral surname. At distance 6, he matches a Stuart--but that man has already tested L21+ and is hence a coincidental convergence.

[MMaddi]

All of the testers in the U106 project know which group they belong to.

Your assumption is wrong - clearly so. Look at our project results table at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults - specifically those on pages 3 and 4. I'm referring to these subgroups of the project members:

ZZZ Inactive or New U106, should test Z381 or upgrade to 111 markers
ZZZ Inactive or New U106+, L48-, should test Z156 or upgrade to 111 markers
ZZZ Inactive or New Z381>Z301>L48, should test Z9 or upgrade to 111 markers
ZZZ Inactive or New Z381>Z301>L48+, L47-, should test Z9 or upgrade to 111 markers
ZZZZ Pending Placement
ZZZZ FTDNA Predicted U106+ or below (SNP Test Required for Membership)
ZZZZ Possible U106 (SNP Test Required for Membership)

The members in those categories who don't have sufficient SNP testing for them or the project administrators to know their subclade probably represent about 30% of the almost 1,900 project members. We're hoping that an affordable deep clade test will get many of these members who need SNP testing to at least find what their major downstream subclade is.

[MMaddi]

I find it hard enough to pay for my own tests but they should not do anything yet until the new SNP batch tests can be ordered. I think that one will be able to test for 50 SNPs under Z156 in the near future. If these two men are S5520 I will take that on board. What is the name of your project?

That's not how the deep clade test will work for a major haplogroup like U106. At present, myself and the other R1-U106 project administrators are trying to determine which are the most important SNPs under U106 to submit as candidates for a U106 deep clade test.

Actually, given that we have identified 243 subclades (SNPs shared by 2 or more members), it will be necessary to have two deep clade tests for the U106 haplogroup. One will be for those who are L48+ (representing about half of the haplogroup) and the other will be for those who are U106+/L48-. That's the only way we can fit the most important SNPs in a deep clade test.

Do the math. Two tests with 60 SNPs each means that the tests will cover about half of the 243 known subclades. We'll have to choose the 120 SNPs defining the most prevalent subclades. Perhaps in the future when the deep clade tests are more established, we can carve out another couple of deep clade tests that get more specific and cover the uncovered subclades.

My point is that you should not expect a deep clade test for all the subclades of Z156, at least not in the initial deep clade test offerings.

[1798]

Then we may have to reassess where that SNP first arose.

I don't think so.
Lepenski Vir is a Mesolithic site in Serbia.
Brusco is a Scottish name.
Some of the men who are closest to both their haplotypes have names that are found in the Isles.

[lgmayka]

If the men in your project test positive for S5520 what difference will that make?

Then we may have to reassess where that SNP first arose.

[1798]

No. That was precisely my point: It is absurd to a priori "decide" that a 4800-year-old SNP first arose in Western Europe without comprehensive, dense sampling of the rest of Europe, and perhaps beyond--sampling that we do not have yet for even the most basic clades like U106, much less some obscure newly discovered subclade.

And to "decide" a priori to discard any evidence contrary to one's pet hypothesis is utterly unscientific, and indeed intellectually dishonest (to oneself as well as others).

In short: "Deciding" the geographic origin of a 4800-year-old SNP is not nearly as easy as one might wish.

A wide variety of branches, oddly enough. And you're off by one order of magnitude. U106 is no more than 6000 years old.

lgmayka
If the men in your project test positive for S5520 what difference will that make?

[1798]

A lot of U106 men probably don't know whether they are Z156+

Timothy Peterman

All of the testers in the U106 project know which group they belong to.

[T E Peterman]

A lot of U106 men probably don't know whether they are Z156+

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

I find it hard enough to pay for my own tests but they should not do anything yet until the new SNP batch tests can be ordered. I think that one will be able to test for 50 SNPs under Z156 in the near future. If these two men are S5520 I will take that on board. What is the name of your project?

I have looked at the three unknown Z156 haplotypes in the Polish project and their haplotypes are a lot different to mine. I would be surprised if they were S5520. S5520 is not for sale as a single SNP with FTDNA. I found it in my Chromo2 test.

[1798]

Two men of Polish ancestry in my project have tested Z156+ but are not (yet) positive for any subclade such as Z305 or L1. They are kits 102524 and 198287. Care to pay for an S5520 test for either of them?

I find it hard enough to pay for my own tests but they should not do anything yet until the new SNP batch tests can be ordered. I think that one will be able to test for 50 SNPs under Z156 in the near future. If these two men are S5520 I will take that on board. What is the name of your project?

[lgmayka]

There is no need to ask those who are U106 to test, only those who are Z156.

Two men of Polish ancestry in my project have tested Z156+ but are not (yet) positive for any subclade such as Z305 or L1. They are kits 102524 and 198287. Care to pay for an S5520 test for either of them?

[1798]

Yes, it is, unless one has investigated and found good explanations for all the occurrences of M222 on the Continent and in Scandinavia. Once again, circular logic is not permitted.

Yes, it is. Q-M3 has been found in Siberia. It is not clear yet whether it first arose there, or whether it back-migrated from America.

To state that Rb in western Europe today originated in the Steppe or around the Black Sea is circular logic.

[lgmayka]

Is it wrong to assume that M222 had an origin in the Isles?

Yes, it is, unless one has investigated and found good explanations for all the occurrences of M222 on the Continent and in Scandinavia. Once again, circular logic is not permitted.

Is it wrong to assume that Q1a3a had an origin in America?

Yes, it is. Q-M3 has been found in Siberia. It is not clear yet whether it first arose there, or whether it back-migrated from America.

[1798]

I suggest that the U106 project try to get as many U106+ people as possible to test for the S5520 SNP.

If the S5520 mutation predates the population split between the P312 proto-Celts and U106 proto Germans... as I have said all along, there is a possibility that your branch of U106 could have crossed over & become part of the proto-Celts before reaching the Isles. This isn't the most likely explanation, but I haven't ruled it out. This would be consistent with the interpretation that R1b moved from Anatolia or the Pontic Steppe into Europe 4500 years ago.

Timothy Peterman

236 U106 Big-Y kits have been analysed and only four are positive for S5520. There is no need to ask those who are U106 to test, only those who are Z156. Z156 has four branches at present that I know of and there are modals for some of them. My branch may have come to the Island with the copper workers. I don't know. I only know that it is old enough to be Bronze-Age and I already posted that two years ago.