DNA Results from Asturias

[1798]

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2014/10/10/results-from-asturias-spain-add-to-the-genographic-project-human-family-tree/

"Haplogroup R1b was the reoccurring lineage for paternal ancestry, accounting for nearly 75% of male participants in this group. R1b is the most common European Y-chromosome branch, and nearly 60% of European men carry this lineage. One interesting finding revealed, however, was that many of the men came from lesser known branches of the R1b, suggesting their exact origin remains a mystery. Among the paternal lineages only one had ties to Europe’s first modern humans."

[ironroad41]

asturians

MtDNA data is provided. Paternal data is alluded to, but not presented. Though, continuity back to Gravettian is cited ( one case). This would suggest that R1b has been present for a much longer time than is generally accepted by members of this community?

[Armando]

The graphic clearly shows Central Europe in green with a green arrow from Central Europe to Asturias. Below where it says Central Europe it says (Bronze Age and Empires: 2,000 B.C. to A.D. 800 Haplogroups: R1b,I2b)



This obviously shows us that Spencer Wells is now in agreement with the presentation from last years FTDNA conference that R1b in Iberia is not from the Franco-Cantabrian refugium. https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/..._in_Europe.pdf

A poster at Anthrogenica found this report from this years FTDNA conference.
"What does the new model of European ancestry based on autosomal DNA mean for the NRY and mtDNA? The Lazaridis study shows that all five mesolithic Y chromosomes belong to Haplogroup I. Three fell into I2a1b and none into the presently locally more common I1. Dr. Hammer reviewed the four sites that he shared in 2013. These were Neolithic sites in France, Spain, Germany, and also Otzi, the 5,000 year old Tyrolean ice man. At this time there was no R1b and a ton of G2a, which dominated. Statistical testing showed that these were statistically highly different populations and there is no doubt that this is completely different Y-chromsomally than today. We now have a lot of new information. There are 15 sites.
Dr. Hammer made a chart of halpogroup frequencies. In the mesolithic period, more than 80% were I. By Neolithic period, G was strongly in the majority. By the metal age, I was back in the form of I2.
The mitochondrial DNA has a large shift between mesolithic and neolithic but then not as much rapid change after that. aDNA evidence supports a recent spread of haplogroup R lineages in Europe.
The Bronze Age was the first use of metal specifically to create weapons. The sword, spear and shield were all invented in this period. In the Iron Age, the first true mass-production of metal tools and weapons began. This revolutionized both agriculture and warfare. From 1200 to 1000 BCE Celts most dominated iron-age warriors."

http://www.ancestorcentral.com/decennial-conference-on-genetic-genealogy-sunday/

[ironroad41]

Asturias

you are probably correct Armando. The paternal linkage mentioned is probably not R1b. I still am awaiting an early R1b site in western Europe, but it hasn't been found yet. The M'Alta boy had a R Hg, and was found in Siberia in a corridor which has easy East - West access, during the 6K to 9KBC period. I have read that was the corridor game chose to follow (W to E) during the above time period?

[Armando]

Since R1b has not been found in western Europe from the 6K to 9KBC period no one can say it was R1b that followed the game in that period.

The Mal'ta boy was R* which descends from P as does Q. P originated in SE Asia and it's R descendants eventually went west. Some Q stayed in Asia and some went to America over the Bering Strait.

[1798]

you are probably correct Armando. The paternal linkage mentioned is probably not R1b. I still am awaiting an early R1b site in western Europe, but it hasn't been found yet. The M'Alta boy had a R Hg, and was found in Siberia in a corridor which has easy East - West access, during the 6K to 9KBC period. I have read that was the corridor game chose to follow (W to E) during the above time period?

R1b is a mystery. The oldest R1b found so far was in Germany from 4,600 ybp. So there is 20,000 years of R1b history to be found yet. I believe that there was a corridor or no mans land region that R1b survived in from France to Siberia during the Ice-Age. I think that is the reason for all the bottlenecks from M207 through to L11.
The Mal'ta boy was U and R and were far of their homeland. The boy's parents or other relatives were not found in that region to date.

[ironroad41]

Asturias

The best place to live in Europe c. 9K to 6K BC was in the north of Europe. Southern Europe was more arid as the Westerly Winds circulated such that N. Africa was fertile and the southern coast of Europe was cool and dry?

The flood of 5500 BC or so destroyed Doggerland and the surrounding coastal areas and inundated the Mediterranean and flooded the Black Sea with saline water.

What Hgs have been found in Western Europe during that period? I believe most finds are from after 6K BC in WE?

The absence of evidence is not proof ...

[Armando]

The best place to live in Europe c. 9K to 6K BC was in the north of Europe. Southern Europe was more arid as the Westerly Winds circulated such that N. Africa was fertile and the southern coast of Europe was cool and dry?

The flood of 5500 BC or so destroyed Doggerland and the surrounding coastal areas and inundated the Mediterranean and flooded the Black Sea with saline water.

What Hgs have been found in Western Europe during that period? I believe most finds are from after 6K BC in WE?

The absence of evidence is not proof ...

For a hypothesis to become a theory it needs evidence. So you choose to believe that R1b was in western Europe during the Mesolithic and that the current western European R1b people descend from them even though you have no evidence that supports your hypothesis. That is fine. You can choose to believe that. In the meantime we will point out that there is no proof of that as Dr. Michael Hammer has pointed out last year and this year at the FTDNA conferences.

The Hgs that have been found in western Europe during the Mesolithic are I, I2, and C1a2.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

[1798]

R1b has not been found in any Mesolithic graves in the world but we know that R1b was a Mesolithic marker and 25,000 years ago was Paleolithic.

[MMaddi]

R1b has not been found in any Mesolithic graves in the world but we know that R1b was a Mesolithic marker and 25,000 years ago was Paleolithic.

I've bolded your statement that I'm responding to. We certainly don't "know" that.

We know that Mal'ta boy's remains are about 25,000 years old and that his haplogroup was R*, not R1b. There is no evidence at all that R1b existed 25,000 years ago - that's your claim or belief.

Furthermore, Mal'ta boy's remains were in Siberia, close to Mongolia. That's quite a leap to cite 25,000 year old R* remains in Siberia as a connection to modern day M269 (R1b1a2) subclades in Asturias, if you're claiming that as proof that R1b was in Europe that long ago!

[1798]

I've bolded your statement that I'm responding to. We certainly don't "know" that.

We know that Mal'ta boy's remains are about 25,000 years old and that his haplogroup was R*, not R1b. There is no evidence at all that R1b existed 25,000 years ago - that's your claim or belief.

Furthermore, Mal'ta boy's remains were in Siberia, close to Mongolia. That's quite a leap to cite 25,000 year old R* remains in Siberia as a connection to modern day M269 (R1b1a2) subclades in Asturias, if you're claiming that as proof that R1b was in Europe that long ago!

I am stating that R1b was Mesolithic and beyond. The number of SNPS from the Geno2 plus the Big-Y average is 125 in total on the R Y-tree at present. So 125x150=18,750 but you should know that there are a lot of SNPs to be added yet from the Big-Y tests between M343 and the present. I don't know how long R1b has been in Europe and neither does anyone else but 18,000 years ago is pre-Mesolithic. R1b was Mesolithic somewhere in the world at some stage in the past.

[ironroad41]

I've bolded your statement that I'm responding to. We certainly don't "know" that.

We know that Mal'ta boy's remains are about 25,000 years old and that his haplogroup was R*, not R1b. There is no evidence at all that R1b existed 25,000 years ago - that's your claim or belief.

Furthermore, Mal'ta boy's remains were in Siberia, close to Mongolia. That's quite a leap to cite 25,000 year old R* remains in Siberia as a connection to modern day M269 (R1b1a2) subclades in Asturias, if you're claiming that as proof that R1b was in Europe that long ago!

The Climatological data suggests that from 9K BC to about the time of the great flood c. 6K BC, their was a large E-W corridor between Europe and northern Asia. Where did the descendants of the R migrate to? South was not very good in those days. Cool, wet, climate. There is a 16K year hole in the records of R and R1b between Mal'ta boy and the start of the northern warming of Europe. Further, we have the great eraser of life called the great flood, which appears to have redistributed artifacts and life when it occurred, from doggerland to the Black Sea. As I mentioned elsewhere, there isn't any evidence for any Y Hgs during the 9K BC to 6K BC in northern Europe, but someone had lived there since artifacts have been found!

[Armando]

The Climatological data suggests that from 9K BC to about the time of the great flood c. 6K BC, their was a large E-W corridor between Europe and northern Asia. Where did the descendants of the R migrate to? South was not very good in those days. Cool, wet, climate. There is a 16K year hole in the records of R and R1b between Mal'ta boy and the start of the northern warming of Europe. Further, we have the great eraser of life called the great flood, which appears to have redistributed artifacts and life when it occurred, from doggerland to the Black Sea. As I mentioned elsewhere, there isn't any evidence for any Y Hgs during the 9K BC to 6K BC in northern Europe, but someone had lived there since artifacts have been found!

Yes, Hg I could have lived there. That is what the remains of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers have tested positive for.

Until you have proof that R1b was there all you have is a hypothesis without evidence and only a few people as yourself are clinging on to it.

[1798]

The Climatological data suggests that from 9K BC to about the time of the great flood c. 6K BC, their was a large E-W corridor between Europe and northern Asia. Where did the descendants of the R migrate to? South was not very good in those days. Cool, wet, climate. There is a 16K year hole in the records of R and R1b between Mal'ta boy and the start of the northern warming of Europe. Further, we have the great eraser of life called the great flood, which appears to have redistributed artifacts and life when it occurred, from doggerland to the Black Sea. As I mentioned elsewhere, there isn't any evidence for any Y Hgs during the 9K BC to 6K BC in northern Europe, but someone had lived there since artifacts have been found!

There is not one ounce of evidence to show that P311 the father of all western Europeans today was born in the Steppe or the around the Black Sea.
L11 was a hunter gatherer which I have already stated in other posts because of the 1000 year bottleneck.

[ironroad41]

Yes, Hg I could have lived there. That is what the remains of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers have tested positive for.

Until you have proof that R1b was there all you have is a hypothesis without evidence and only a few people as yourself are clinging on to it.

AFIK, there have only been two remains analyzed which were, as you say , some form of I. But, can you explain to me how R1b became the most prominent hg in north western Europe?