Iron Age Briton

[suttonwho]

Now that my (99%British Isles/1% Asia Minor) Irish grandmother's results have returned I'll throw her K15 into the mix for comparison. Her known roots are mainly in Armagh, Galway and Mayo.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 37.03
2 Atlantic 28.76
3 Baltic 9.84
4 West_Med 7.20
5 Eastern_Euro 7.13
6 West_Asian 6.80
7 Amerindian 1.68
8 South_Asian 1.39

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Orcadian @ 4.695037
2 Irish @ 4.747547
3 West_Scottish @ 4.969964
4 Southeast_English @ 5.312110
5 North_Dutch @ 5.428865
6 Danish @ 6.094792
7 Southwest_English @ 6.104275
8 North_German @ 7.127738
9 Norwegian @ 9.472683
10 West_Norwegian @ 9.657881
11 South_Dutch @ 10.245161
12 Swedish @ 10.789618
13 West_German @ 10.980000
14 North_Swedish @ 14.530258
15 French @ 14.744915
16 East_German @ 16.963350
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 20.087074
18 Austrian @ 21.687025
19 Hungarian @ 22.214186
20 Spanish_Cataluna @ 23.466423

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% North_German +50% Orcadian @ 4.066386

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% North_German +25% Orcadian +25% Orcadian @ 4.066386

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 3.789279
2 Irish + North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 3.804422
3 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 3.873195
4 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 3.910693
5 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.941847
6 North_Dutch + North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 4.050917
7 North_German + North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 4.066386
8 Irish + Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 4.120435
9 Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 4.141977
10 Irish + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 4.148762
11 Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian + South_Dutch @ 4.152512
12 Irish + Irish + North_German + Orcadian @ 4.168439
13 Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 4.169359
14 Irish + North_German + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 4.175824
15 Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian + South_Dutch @ 4.184335
16 North_German + Orcadian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 4.200647
17 Irish + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 4.203398
18 Irish + North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 4.210155
19 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 4.211171
20 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 4.212255

This is the same grandmother who provided me with not so much as a single % of British Isles, according to MyOrigins

[EastAnglian]

I think that felix showed that the admixture calculators are a load of nonsense.

Have you ever ran an admixture tool against your FF data?, if so what was the result?, I bet Irish wasn't number one and that's why you're saying admixture calculators are nonsense. Anything that doesn't fit in with your theories is described as such.

There are people shown as recent cousins with a person who died 24,000 ybp.

I've got cousins on Family Finder, they are German and Norwegian. So Family Finder for me confirms what Gedmatch is saying, that within 1000-1500 years I have ancestry from those areas of Europe, this fits in with my ancestors being Anglo-Saxons and Vikings not British Celts.

[1798]

If you upload your FF raw data and X Chromosome raw data to gedmatch.com, you will be able to see what your results are with the admixture calculators.

It might help put some things in context for you.

I think that felix showed that the admixture calculators are a load of nonsense. There are people shown as recent cousins with a person who died 24,000 ybp.

[N21163]

What about the autosomal dna from the original inhabitants of north western Europe? You are referring to autosomal dna within the last 2,500 years. People have been living in the Isles from the LGM. You must have some autosomal dna from them.

If you upload your FF raw data and X Chromosome raw data to gedmatch.com, you will be able to see what your results are with the admixture calculators.

It might help put some things in context for you.

[1798]

They show that my closest matches in Europe are Scandinavian(Norway) and West German. I'm from Cambridgeshire, so that doesn't exactly fit in with the idea that there was no wipe out and that Celts and modern East Anglian folk are the same autosomally.

I think there must be some small amount of Celt in me but not much given my admixture results. I used to think 60/40 split between incomer and native but I'm thinking a higher incomer amount than that these days.

What about the autosomal dna from the original inhabitants of north western Europe? You are referring to autosomal dna within the last 2,500 years. People have been living in the Isles from the LGM. You must have some autosomal dna from them.

[EastAnglian]

All of these figures mean nothing to me. Everyone in western Europe must have similar autosomal dna.

They show that my closest matches in Europe are Scandinavian(Norway) and West German. I'm from Cambridgeshire, so that doesn't exactly fit in with the idea that there was no wipe out and that Celts and modern East Anglian folk are the same autosomally.

I think there must be some small amount of Celt in me but not much given my admixture results. I used to think 60/40 split between incomer and native but I'm thinking a higher incomer amount than that these days.

[1798]

I'm ancestrally from Cambridgeshire,if there was no impact from Anglo-Saxons or Scandinavians then how do you explain my Autosomal results on Gedmatch?:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 39.02
2 Atlantic 24.74
3 Baltic 12.36
4 West_Med 7.75
5 Eastern_Euro 7.02
6 East_Med 4.92
7 West_Asian 4.20


--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 5.077
2 Danish @ 6.534
3 Norwegian @ 6.861
4 West_Norwegian @ 7.108
5 Orcadian @ 7.361
6 West_German @ 7.376
7 Southeast_English @ 7.388
8 Swedish @ 7.444
9 West_Scottish @ 7.776
10 Irish @ 7.786
207 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:

1 50% West_German +50% West_Norwegian @ 3.754
2 50% North_Dutch +50% West_German @ 4.207
3 50% Orcadian +50% West_German @ 4.516
4 50% Norwegian +50% West_German @ 4.631
5 50% Swedish +50% West_German @ 4.668
6 50% West_German +50% West_Scottish @ 4.829
7 50% Danish +50% West_German @ 4.892
8 50% Southeast_English +50% Swedish @ 4.958
9 50% Southwest_English +50% Swedish @ 4.960
10 50% Irish +50% West_German @ 4.992
21528 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% West_German +25% North_Dutch +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.681
2 50% North_Dutch +25% West_German +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.693
3 50% West_German +25% Orcadian +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.708
4 50% West_German +25% Irish +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.737
5 50% West_German +25% West_Norwegian +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.754
6 50% West_Norwegian +25% West_German +25% West_German @ 3.754
7 50% West_German +25% West_Norwegian +25% West_Scottish @ 3.755
8 50% West_German +25% Orcadian +25% Swedish @ 3.818
9 50% West_Norwegian +25% Southeast_English +25% West_German @ 3.848
10 50% West_Norwegian +25% Irish +25% West_German @ 3.949
904150 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North_Dutch + West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.681
2 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.693
3 Orcadian + West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.708
4 Irish + West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.737
5 West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.754
6 West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 3.755
7 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Swedish + West_German @ 3.801
8 Orcadian + Swedish + West_German + West_German @ 3.818
9 Southeast_English + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.824
10 Southeast_English + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.848
11 North_Dutch + Orcadian + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.895
12 North_Dutch + Southeast_English + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.898
13 Irish + North_Dutch + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.940
14 Irish + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.943
15 Irish + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.949
16 Southwest_English + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.958
17 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Swedish + West_German @ 3.964
18 Orcadian + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.967
19 Danish + West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.974
20 North_Dutch + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.979

I would have thought I'd see Welsh and Irish as the top matches if my ancestors were Celts.

All of these figures mean nothing to me. Everyone in western Europe must have similar autosomal dna.

[EastAnglian]

I'm ancestrally from Cambridgeshire,if there was no impact from Anglo-Saxons or Scandinavians then how do you explain my Autosomal results on Gedmatch?:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 39.02
2 Atlantic 24.74
3 Baltic 12.36
4 West_Med 7.75
5 Eastern_Euro 7.02
6 East_Med 4.92
7 West_Asian 4.20


--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 5.077
2 Danish @ 6.534
3 Norwegian @ 6.861
4 West_Norwegian @ 7.108
5 Orcadian @ 7.361
6 West_German @ 7.376
7 Southeast_English @ 7.388
8 Swedish @ 7.444
9 West_Scottish @ 7.776
10 Irish @ 7.786
207 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:

1 50% West_German +50% West_Norwegian @ 3.754
2 50% North_Dutch +50% West_German @ 4.207
3 50% Orcadian +50% West_German @ 4.516
4 50% Norwegian +50% West_German @ 4.631
5 50% Swedish +50% West_German @ 4.668
6 50% West_German +50% West_Scottish @ 4.829
7 50% Danish +50% West_German @ 4.892
8 50% Southeast_English +50% Swedish @ 4.958
9 50% Southwest_English +50% Swedish @ 4.960
10 50% Irish +50% West_German @ 4.992
21528 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% West_German +25% North_Dutch +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.681
2 50% North_Dutch +25% West_German +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.693
3 50% West_German +25% Orcadian +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.708
4 50% West_German +25% Irish +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.737
5 50% West_German +25% West_Norwegian +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.754
6 50% West_Norwegian +25% West_German +25% West_German @ 3.754
7 50% West_German +25% West_Norwegian +25% West_Scottish @ 3.755
8 50% West_German +25% Orcadian +25% Swedish @ 3.818
9 50% West_Norwegian +25% Southeast_English +25% West_German @ 3.848
10 50% West_Norwegian +25% Irish +25% West_German @ 3.949
904150 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North_Dutch + West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.681
2 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.693
3 Orcadian + West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.708
4 Irish + West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.737
5 West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.754
6 West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 3.755
7 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Swedish + West_German @ 3.801
8 Orcadian + Swedish + West_German + West_German @ 3.818
9 Southeast_English + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.824
10 Southeast_English + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.848
11 North_Dutch + Orcadian + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.895
12 North_Dutch + Southeast_English + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.898
13 Irish + North_Dutch + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.940
14 Irish + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.943
15 Irish + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.949
16 Southwest_English + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.958
17 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Swedish + West_German @ 3.964
18 Orcadian + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.967
19 Danish + West_German + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 3.974
20 North_Dutch + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.979

I would have thought I'd see Welsh and Irish as the top matches if my ancestors were Celts.

[1798]

Are you suggesting that it isn´t? I would assume that the impact would be most in those areas that they invaded and my own DNA (many generations in NE England or Scotland) certainly shows some Scandinavian influence.

The researchers were surprised to find that the older Iron Age men were genetically more similar to people living in Britain today than the Anglo-Saxon women were. Stephan Schiffels of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute reported the results October 20 at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics.

“It doesn’t look like these Anglo-Saxon immigrants left a big impact on the genetic makeup of modern-day Britain,” Schiffels said.

[LynCra]

If there was a large movement of people from Denmark and Norway to Britain 1400 years ago then the autosomal dna of the modern British would be close to those regions.

Are you suggesting that it isn´t? I would assume that the impact would be most in those areas that they invaded and my own DNA (many generations in NE England or Scotland) certainly shows some Scandinavian influence.

[1798]

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...modern-britons

"Britons might not be Anglo-Saxons, a genetic analysis of five ancient skeletons hints.

When archaeological digs revealed ancient graves on the grounds of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in Hinxton, England, researchers there took it as a sign that they should analyze the ancient people’s DNA. Two skeletons were from men who were buried about 2,000 years ago. The other three skeletons were from women who died about 1,300 years ago, not long after the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain.

The researchers were surprised to find that the older Iron Age men were genetically more similar to people living in Britain today than the Anglo-Saxon women were. Stephan Schiffels of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute reported the results October 20 at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics.

“It doesn’t look like these Anglo-Saxon immigrants left a big impact on the genetic makeup of modern-day Britain,” Schiffels said.

The finding raises an intriguing possibility that indigenous people in Britain may have repelled the Anglo-Saxons but adopted the invaders’ language and culture, says Eimear Kenny, a population geneticist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City, who was not involved in the work. More ancient samples from other times and parts of Britain should give a clearer picture of that episode of history, she said."

If there was a large movement of people from Denmark and Norway to Britain 1400 years ago then the autosomal dna of the modern British would be close to those regions.

[Armando]

Anyone know if that was Y-DNA or Autosomal DNA?

Yes. It was whole genome sequencing. Meaning that they tested for Y-DNA, mntDNA, and autosomal DNA. The abstract is at http://www.ashg.org/2014meeting/abst...f140122098.htm

The two Iron Age specimens were the only men so they are the only ones that would have Y-DNA.

Felix has been doing a conversion of the files of all ancient DNA and the Hinxton specimens from this study are in there as well as links to his analysis and the original files. http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

Hinxton 1 has turned out to have R1b-Z245 which is phylogenetically equivalent to L21. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2c/ Felix hasn't updated the list with the correct terminal SNP or the correct dates. This specimen had degraded DNA and did not get results for P312, L21, or SNPs below those SNP markers.

Hinxton 4 has turned out to be P312+ L21+ Z246/S280+ DF25/S253+ L658- L1402- CTS3655/S3787- http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF25/

[EastAnglian]

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...modern-britons

"Britons might not be Anglo-Saxons, a genetic analysis of five ancient skeletons hints.

When archaeological digs revealed ancient graves on the grounds of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in Hinxton, England, researchers there took it as a sign that they should analyze the ancient people’s DNA. Two skeletons were from men who were buried about 2,000 years ago. The other three skeletons were from women who died about 1,300 years ago, not long after the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain.

The researchers were surprised to find that the older Iron Age men were genetically more similar to people living in Britain today than the Anglo-Saxon women were. Stephan Schiffels of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute reported the results October 20 at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics.

“It doesn’t look like these Anglo-Saxon immigrants left a big impact on the genetic makeup of modern-day Britain,” Schiffels said.

The finding raises an intriguing possibility that indigenous people in Britain may have repelled the Anglo-Saxons but adopted the invaders’ language and culture, says Eimear Kenny, a population geneticist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City, who was not involved in the work. More ancient samples from other times and parts of Britain should give a clearer picture of that episode of history, she said."

Anyone know if that was Y-DNA or Autosomal DNA?

[1798]

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/anglo-saxons-left-language-maybe-not-genes-modern-britons

"Britons might not be Anglo-Saxons, a genetic analysis of five ancient skeletons hints.

When archaeological digs revealed ancient graves on the grounds of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in Hinxton, England, researchers there took it as a sign that they should analyze the ancient people’s DNA. Two skeletons were from men who were buried about 2,000 years ago. The other three skeletons were from women who died about 1,300 years ago, not long after the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain.

The researchers were surprised to find that the older Iron Age men were genetically more similar to people living in Britain today than the Anglo-Saxon women were. Stephan Schiffels of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute reported the results October 20 at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics.

“It doesn’t look like these Anglo-Saxon immigrants left a big impact on the genetic makeup of modern-day Britain,” Schiffels said.

The finding raises an intriguing possibility that indigenous people in Britain may have repelled the Anglo-Saxons but adopted the invaders’ language and culture, says Eimear Kenny, a population geneticist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City, who was not involved in the work. More ancient samples from other times and parts of Britain should give a clearer picture of that episode of history, she said."

[1798]

I thought that 70% of the R1b in south east England was P312. It must be if U106 is 30%, unless it is some other R1b type.

"The authors spoke at the conference. They suggest only a small movement of people, as modern Brits are closer to the Iron Age samples."