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  • #31
    Originally posted by EastAnglian View Post
    Well you have never shared your admixture results on here, any plans to do that?, would be interesting
    I would like to see some test results on ancient remains in the Isles from the Neolithic and Bronze-age.

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    • #32
      @EastAnglian
      That is more or less what I thought. I found the South Asian to be quite interesting and unexpected but given she and my dad both carry Asia Minor I suppose it could be real. I have no idea why she would be showing any American Indian unless it is getting confused with something like Sammi.

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      • #33
        I have wondered if South Asian can hint at Romani ancestry, especially if one's traditions simply point to western Europe or the American colonies.

        Timothy Peterman

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        • #34
          @ T Peterman I hadn't thought of Romani. I was thinking possibly someone was stationed in India during the colonial period and it may have squiggled in that way.

          Chances are it is probably very old. There has never been so much of a breath of a rumor of South Asia or Asia Minor, but of course these admix tests predate my paper trail. There must be some grain of truth to it though, because it shows up across all of the tests I have run so far, as do populations from around the Caspian Sea.

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          • #35
            Depending on which calculator I use, I am anywhere from about .5% South Asian to 1.5% South Asian. My father is about 2.59% (Eurogenes 13) & his brothers are 3% & about 1.87% South Asian. My father has first & second cousins on his mother's side who also show this. It points to my great grandfather, Edwin Hall. He had really dark hair & dark eyes.

            Edwin's paternal grandmother's line is nigh impossible to trace, but she had a sister, Rosanna McCormick, & according to Rosanna's 1889 obituary, she was, among many other things, a fortune teller. I don't know if this hints at Romani ancestry. What is really strange is that the family has a fabricated tradition that makes Rosanna & her sister, Elminah (my g-g-g grandmother) siblings to Cyrus McCormick, inventor of the reaper. This tradition can easily be debunked, but it persists. Rosanna & Elminah lived in Frederick Co., VA & Jefferson Co., VA (now WV)

            I do know that when the Romani or gypsy folk began to arrive in the Isles, many were arrested & convicted on petty charges & deported to the colonies, mainly Virginia & Maryland, where they worked off their crimes as indentured servants.

            Aside from this possibility, I am 1/8 Swiss & 7/8 colonial American; all originating in northwestern Europe. I may indeed have a wee bit of Romani ancestry, or the calculators might just be off.

            Timothy Peterman

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            • #36
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              What about the autosomal dna from the original inhabitants of north western Europe? You are referring to autosomal dna within the last 2,500 years. People have been living in the Isles from the LGM. You must have some autosomal dna from them.
              Two words to explain what you're complaining about - population replacement.

              During the Neolithic and then again during the Metal Ages, there was significant migration from western Eurasia into Europe. That migration effectively replaced most of the "native" European population from the Paleolithic/Mesolithic.

              You may find this difficult (impossible?) to accept, but most people don't. And it's been proven by the works of historians, anthropologists, linguists, archaeologists and, more recently, population geneticists.

              This was the subject of Dr. Hammer's presentation at FTDNA's conference two weeks ago. It was also the subject of a study which showed that there are three ancestral populations for Europe - see http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf - co-authored by literally dozens of population geneticists. In other words, this is the strong consensus of professionals in the field, with no axe to grind or personal agenda to serve.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                Two words to explain what you're complaining about - population replacement.

                During the Neolithic and then again during the Metal Ages, there was significant migration from western Eurasia into Europe. That migration effectively replaced most of the "native" European population from the Paleolithic/Mesolithic.

                You may find this difficult (impossible?) to accept, but most people don't. And it's been proven by the works of historians, anthropologists, linguists, archaeologists and, more recently, population geneticists.


                This was the subject of Dr. Hammer's presentation at FTDNA's conference two weeks ago. It was also the subject of a study which showed that there are three ancestral populations for Europe - see http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf - co-authored by literally dozens of population geneticists. In other words, this is the strong consensus of professionals in the field, with no axe to grind or personal agenda to serve.
                "The researchers were surprised to find that the older Iron Age men were genetically more similar to people living in Britain today than the Anglo-Saxon women were. Stephan Schiffels of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute reported the results October 20 at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics."


                So the "experts" are saying that the Mesolithic people were replaced by the Neolithic people and the Neolithic people were replaced by the Bronze-Age people and the Bronze-Age people were replaced by the Iron Age people etc.
                I think that they are out of touch with reality.

                "Based on the tweets that were sent from ASHG this week, it is a certainty that Corded Ware is derived genetically from Yamnaya, and that the Yamnaya had a large amount of ANE. Everything I have seen so far from Y-DNA or autosomal DNA points to an R1a-heavy involvement in all three" posted by R.R.
                Where is the R1b from Yamnaya and the CWC?
                Last edited by 1798; 24 October 2014, 01:37 PM.

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                • #38
                  (Sorry for the mini-hijack)

                  @T Peterman: My grandmother totally bypassed the American colonies She also has dark eyes and had black hair when she was young. If you look at my profile picture, my hair may as well have been transplanted off her head. I can't imagine she has any Traveller roots though. The family is too staunch Catholic/15 children per family/stay in 1 place forever. Her paper only goes back to 1800, so perhaps we had people stationed in India in the 1700's.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    "The researchers were surprised to find that the older Iron Age men were genetically more similar to people living in Britain today than the Anglo-Saxon women were. Stephan Schiffels of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute reported the results October 20 at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics."


                    So the "experts" are saying that the Mesolithic people were replaced by the Neolithic people and the Neolithic people were replaced by the Bronze-Age people and the Bronze-Age people were replaced by the Iron Age people etc.
                    I think that they are out of touch with reality.

                    "Based on the tweets that were sent from ASHG this week, it is a certainty that Corded Ware is derived genetically from Yamnaya, and that the Yamnaya had a large amount of ANE. Everything I have seen so far from Y-DNA or autosomal DNA points to an R1a-heavy involvement in all three" posted by R.R.
                    Where is the R1b from Yamnaya and the CWC?
                    It seems to me that there are two major population groups in the Isles, southern and northern European. The northern European could be the oldest.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Maybe this is the reason that ancient R1b hasn't been found yet.This was posted on another forum.
                      "Hi all,
                      I was struck by the fact that 95% of lineages died out within 500 years. If this is correct then for any one in the R-U106 group to find an ancestor from 1000 years ago one would have to test 2000 ancient remains. This is on the assumption that R-U106 is 20% of the population. If R-U106 is 10% one would have to test 4000 remains.
                      I think not a very cost effective way of find out more about our origins and migration patterns."K.T.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                        Depending on which calculator I use, I am anywhere from about .5% South Asian to 1.5% South Asian. My father is about 2.59% (Eurogenes 13) & his brothers are 3% & about 1.87% South Asian. My father has first & second cousins on his mother's side who also show this. It points to my great grandfather, Edwin Hall. He had really dark hair & dark eyes.

                        Edwin's paternal grandmother's line is nigh impossible to trace, but she had a sister, Rosanna McCormick, & according to Rosanna's 1889 obituary, she was, among many other things, a fortune teller. I don't know if this hints at Romani ancestry. What is really strange is that the family has a fabricated tradition that makes Rosanna & her sister, Elminah (my g-g-g grandmother) siblings to Cyrus McCormick, inventor of the reaper. This tradition can easily be debunked, but it persists. Rosanna & Elminah lived in Frederick Co., VA & Jefferson Co., VA (now WV)

                        I do know that when the Romani or gypsy folk began to arrive in the Isles, many were arrested & convicted on petty charges & deported to the colonies, mainly Virginia & Maryland, where they worked off their crimes as indentured servants.

                        Aside from this possibility, I am 1/8 Swiss & 7/8 colonial American; all originating in northwestern Europe. I may indeed have a wee bit of Romani ancestry, or the calculators might just be off.

                        Timothy Peterman

                        Timothy, interesting that you mention Frederick County Virginia and Jefferson County West Virginia because that is exactly where my Lock family lived! 12 Locke men have been Y DNA tested, all confirmed to be in Y Haplogroup H1a - M82.

                        And you mention the Hall family which is also VERY interesting to me! I have around a dozen Lock / Hall marriages noted in my family tree, most took place in Barren County Kentucky,

                        I also have one McCormick / Lock marriage that I think took place in Jackson County Tennessee that maybe related to your McCormick's possibly?

                        I have found that many of the family's that married in to the Romanichal family's of Virginia, tended to follow each other from place to place, when one moved to another county, the rest often followed, when one moved to another state, the rest often followed.

                        The Lock / Locke's are with out a doubt British Romanichal Gypsy descendants who first shows up in Frederick County Virginia around 1750's. Richard Lock signed a land deed lease in Frederick County Va in 1763, and 4 of his sons branches have done the Y DNA test.

                        You having family ties to that region of Virginia certainly makes it a very real possibility you have a Romanichal Gypsy blood tie in my mind!

                        I know the Romanichal Ingram family resided in Pittsylvania County Va and Halifax County Va too! Two of the Ingram men have been Y DNA tested, both are in Y Haplogroup H1a as well, and interestingly I have a direct paper trail back to the Ingram's! My 5th great grand parents are Stephen Dennison and Elizabeth Ingram, both of Pittsylvania County Va 1700's era.

                        I know the Scottish Bailey's were in Virginia as well, but I don't know exactly where they lived in the Virgnia's, and they have family ties in Laurens County South Carolina too.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Of the Romanies in the American Colonies that I know about, are of the Scottish and British Romanichal clan whom were transported to the Colonies as convicts.

                          The vast majority of the Y Haplogroup H1a male lineages of multiple surnames idenfied by FTDNA so far, all trace their paternal lineages back to Colonial Virginia late 1600's - early 1800's era.

                          Lock(e) - 1700's Virginia in H1a
                          Ingram - 1700's Virginia in H1a
                          Hite - mid 1800's Virginia in H1a "maybe a case of adoption?"
                          Bailey - late 1600's Virginia and 1700's South Carolina in H1a
                          Campbell - 1700's Virginia in H1a

                          That is 5 paternal lineages carrying this rare South Asian Indian Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 all with direct ties to Colonial Virginia, and those are just the one's I know about there maybe more that I do not know about.

                          That also does not include any female Romanies whom were transported to the colonies too. If there are any ladies carrying mt Haplogroup M5a1b that can trace their direct maternal trees back to the Colonies, I would certainly love to hear about that research!

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                          • #43
                            My Hall family is R1b L2*. They are apparently descended from William Hall & Hannah Richardson, founders of Halltown in what is now Jefferson Co., WV.

                            As mentioned earlier, the South Asian content of my ancestry appears to be derived from my great grandfather, Edwin Hall. Edwin had dark brown eyes & black hair; features that a number of his descendants, including my grandmother & my father, shared. The skin was a bit more olive than normal for a NW European. My assumption is that such slightly darker features could be an indicator of South Asian/ Romanichal ancestry.

                            Edwin's mother, Sarah Benjamin Horr (1837-1887) also had dark features. She is descended from a lot of New England families (Hoar, Powers, Wickham, Benjamin & many more).

                            Edwin's father, James William Hall (1827-1874) had dark features. His father, William James Hall, is said to have been a Universalist minister. His mother, Elminah Easton (1809-1857), married second to Thomas H. B. Reed. The children by Reed tended to have lighter features. All of her children thought her maiden name was McCormick, but her 1825 marriage record (at age 16) reveals Easton to be her maiden name.

                            I went to Ancestry & added William Hall & Hannah Richardson as ancestors several generations before William James Hall. This yielded leaf hints. I added Philip Eastin as an ancestor of Elminah back in the mid 1700s & this yielded one leaf hint.

                            Elminah's mother was a widow from about the 1820s until her death in the mid 1860s. Her name was variously shown as Amelia McCormick or Mildred McCormick; she was in Frederick Co., VA. No clue as to her maiden name. Her daughter, Rosanna, presumably by a second husband, is the one whose obituary reported her to be a fortune teller, among other things.

                            If there is Romanichal ancestry here, I suspect Amelia or Mildred may have been the source; or perhaps the unknown mother of William James Hall.

                            If it weren't for the consistent autosomal DNA reports, I probably wouldn't even explore this as a possibility.

                            Are there accessible Romanichal records? Or have such been lost to the winds of time?

                            Timothy Peterman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Timothy

                              Thomas Locke married Cynthia Hall b. August 15, 1786, they married December 27, 1809 Berkeley County, Virginia (now WV).

                              Part of old Frederick County Va became a part of Berkeley County Va. I do not know who Cynthia's parents were, but she very well could be related to your Hall lineage.

                              I have been tracing the later 1850's - 1900's Romanichal migration to the USA, but that wouldn't help with the Colonial Romanichal's other then giving you an idea of what surnames they were known to be using.

                              Fortune tellers / palm readers were certainly a big part of the Romanichal way of life, but not all fortune tellers and palm readers were Romanies.

                              There is a lot about the Hall family that I do not know about as I have not specifically researched their tree yet.
                              And all the Hall's in my tree maybe from various unrelated Hall lineages for all I know. It would be interesting if you could trace your Hall's to Barren County Kentucky early 1800's because if you could make that connection that would really be interesting.

                              My Lock's among others had lived in Frederick County Va, to Berkeley County Va, to Jefferson County Va, then the family split up, most migrated to Mercer County Kentucky by the 1780's and settled in Barren County Ky by 1799 and a few stayed in the Virginia's.

                              If there were Romanies from other clans of Europe in the colonies, I am not personally aware of them. To date of the H1a male lineages who can trace our trees back to Virginia are of the British and Scottish Romanichal clan.

                              I have always suspected the Hall's of Virginia and Kentucky had an earlier Romani blood tie, likely prior to them marrying my Lock's. I can not prove that, just a strong suspicion on my part.

                              99% of the Lock(e)'s of Frederick County, Berkeley County, Jefferson County, Clarke County Va are related to my lineage.

                              The web link is on the 1850's - 1900's Romanichal migration to the USA, it is a work in progress and no where near complete. But that research will give you a good idea of their surnames so you know who to be looking for in the early colonial records.
                              http://home.comcast.net/~lockeroots/...usRecords.html

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                                Iron Age R1b-L11+ Briton ERS389795

                                Eurogenes K15 calculator.
                                North Sea - 42.96
                                Atlantic - 28.86
                                Baltic - 6.47
                                Eastern Euro - 12.22
                                West Med - 6.77
                                West Asian - 1.74
                                East Med - 0.01
                                Red Sea - 0.97

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