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Bell Beakers in Ireland

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    No, that is NOT what I wrote. The scientists were able to get a clear M269+ result from one of the sets of Beaker remains. From the other set they got a clear M343+ result but were unable to get a clear M269+ result. This does not mean that M343+ skeleton was M269-. It just means they could not get a clear M269+ result from it.

    They were, however, able to test both for U106 and determine that both were U106-.

    It isn't necessary to reconstitute the entire genome of a set of remains in phylogenetic order to be able to test for specific SNPs.
    They couldn't get a clear M269 result but they could get a clear U106 result. LOL

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    You said that they were finding it difficult to test them for M269 and then they tried to test them for a downstream branch like U106. That does not make sense.
    No, that is NOT what I wrote. The scientists were able to get a clear M269+ result from one of the sets of Beaker remains. From the other set they got a clear M343+ result but were unable to get a clear M269+ result. This does not mean that M343+ skeleton was M269-. It just means they could not get a clear M269+ result from it.

    They were, however, able to test both for U106 and determine that both were U106-.

    It isn't necessary to reconstitute the entire genome of a set of remains in phylogenetic order to be able to test for specific SNPs.
    Last edited by Stevo; 13 June 2014, 10:00 AM.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by ironroad41 View Post
    You chide others for their sources. I believe that the story of human history has to be rewritten using STR, ADNA and other data, tied in with appropriate Climatological and Archaeological data. For now, I don't even trust Linguistics. What we need is more data, not personal opinion. JMHO.
    What does that mean? Are you saying Hubert is not a competent source on the Beaker Folk? Hubert wrote back in the early 20th century. He had nothing to say about dna, but what he said about archaeology and linguistics is still valuable. The point of the quote from him was to provide information on the Beaker Folk in the British Isles, information which is still valid.

    The climate in Western Europe is the climate in Western Europe. It has little bearing on people who are not there at the time.
    Last edited by Stevo; 13 June 2014, 09:58 AM.

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  • ironroad41
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    From The History of the Celtic People by French archaeologist and inguist Henri Hubert, pages 169 and 171-173:
    You chide others for their sources. I believe that the story of human history has to be rewritten using STR, ADNA and other data, tied in with appropriate Climatological and Archaeological data. For now, I don't even trust Linguistics. What we need is more data, not personal opinion. JMHO.

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    Obviously not. It just says they were U106-. We still do not know for what other SNPs downstream of M269 they may have been positive.

    We probably never will know either. We're lucky they were able to get as far as they did with such old remains.

    We need some really well preserved Beaker remains and a full genome result. Frozen remains would be nice, but the Beaker Folk, as far as I know, did not settle in places where their remains were likely to remain frozen for long.
    You said that they were finding it difficult to test them for M269 and then they tried to test them for a downstream branch like U106. That does not make sense.

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  • ironroad41
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    No, but in the case of Ireland, the manifestation of this complex differs from elsewhere because settlements are comparatively common while stereotypical Beaker burials are rare.
    There is a very active thread on Anthrogenica re: who were the forerunners of Europe. Jean M and Jean L have been trading insults for days. Jean L just posted a thread which is a detailed analysis of Light hair, blue eyes, red hair etc., based on genetic mutations. The discussion concerns three kinds of ancient cultures: EEF (early European farmers), WEH (west European hunters) and ANE( ancient north Eurasian). Her conclusions infer that ANE has the light hair and blue eyes mutation and maybe as much as 20% of modern European DNA. I know that Stevo has posted there.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I guess that says it all.
    Obviously not. It just says they were U106-. We still do not know for what other SNPs downstream of M269 they may have been positive.

    We probably never will know either. We're lucky they were able to get as far as they did with such old remains.

    We need some really well preserved Beaker remains and a full genome result. Frozen remains would be nice, but the Beaker Folk, as far as I know, did not settle in places where their remains were likely to remain frozen for long.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    I never claimed all the Beaker men were L21+. For one thing, I don't think they were. But I do think L21 was prevalent among the Beaker Folk who went to the British Isles.

    Of the two sets of Beaker remains from the site near Kromsdorf, Germany, one tested M269+, but they could only get as far as M343+ with the other. It's not that the second one was M343*; it's just that they could not get a clear M269+ result from such old remains. They did test both sets of remains for U106, however, and both were clearly U106-.
    I guess that says it all. They could not get a clear result on the type of R1b.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    P312 and U106 are 50/50 in Germany among the R1b population.
    I looked at the German dna project.
    In the area around Kromsdorf, Germany, U106 is more frequent than P312, and, in general, P312 tends to prevail in southern and western Germany, while U106 is more frequent in the north and east.

    The German Language Area Y-DNA Project is fine, but it is not a scientific study.

    The fact remains that the scientists who tested the Beaker remains from Kromsdorf tested them for U106 (they were U106-) but not for P312.

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    I never claimed all the Beaker men were L21+. For one thing, I don't think they were. But I do think L21 was prevalent among the Beaker Folk who went to the British Isles.

    Of the two sets of Beaker remains from the site near Kromsdorf, Germany, one tested M269+, but they could only get as far as M343+ with the other. It's not that the second one was M343*; it's just that they could not get a clear M269+ result from such old remains. They did test both sets of remains for U106, however, and both were clearly U106-. I guess they tested them for U106 because the site is in Germany. They may have expected them to be U106+ because U106 is so common there now. They did not even test the remains for P312, let alone L21.
    P312 and U106 are 50/50 in Germany among the R1b population.
    I looked at the German dna project.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I would like to see the results from ancient dna testing that shows all the Bell Beakers with L21 remains.
    I never claimed all the Beaker men were L21+. For one thing, I don't think they were. But I do think L21 was prevalent among the Beaker Folk who went to the British Isles.

    Of the two sets of Beaker remains from the site near Kromsdorf, Germany, one tested M269+, but they could only get as far as M343+ with the other. It's not that the second one was M343*; it's just that they could not get a clear M269+ result from such old remains. They did test both sets of remains for U106, however, and both were clearly U106-. I guess they tested them for U106 because the site is in Germany. They may have expected them to be U106+ because U106 is so common there now. They did not even test the remains for P312, let alone L21.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    From The History of the Celtic People by French archaeologist and inguist Henri Hubert, pages 169 and 171-173:

    Originally posted by Henri Hubert
    But whence did the Goidels come, and when did they come? Where must we look for their earliest home on the Continent and their starting-point? Probably they came from north of the Brythonic domain, and it is to them that tradition refers when it tells that the Celts used to live on the low coasts of the North Sea. They must have left those shores very early, for hardly a trace of them remains there (p. 169).
    . . . In the first period of the Bronze Age there arrived in the British Isles, coming from the Continent, people with very marked characteristics. The old Neolithic inhabitants (among whom I include those of all the beginning of the Bronze Age) were long-heads of Mediterranean type, who built for their dead, or, at least, for the more distinguished of them, tumuli with a funeral chamber known as the "long barrows", in which one sometimes finds those curious bell-shaped beakers adorned at regular intervals with bands of incised or stamped decoration, of a very simple and austere type. The newcomers were of quite a different type, and had other funeral practices.
    They buried their dead under round tumuli, known as "round barrows", in graves in which the body was placed in a crouching position on one side and enclosed in stone flags or woodwork. Later they burned them. In their graves there were zoned beakers (Fig. 33), but of a late type in which the neck is distinguished from the belly, or vases derived from these beakers . . . The grave goods comprised buttons with a V-shaped boring, flint and copper daggers, arrow-heads, and flat perforated pieces of schist which are "bracers", or bowman's wristguards. The skeletons were of a new type: tall, with round heads of a fairly constant shape, the brow receding, the supraciliary ridge prominent, the cheek-bones highly developed, and the jaws massive and projecting so as to present a dip at the base of the nose. I have already described them as one of the types represented in Celtic burials.
    The association of the physical type of this people with the beaker has led British anthropologists to call it the Beaker Folk . . . In Scotland they were accompanied by other brachycephals, with a higher index and of Alpine type. In general they advanced from south to north and from east to west, and their progress lasted long enough for there to be a very marked difference in furniture between their oldest and latest tombs.
    . . . Their progress was a conquest. It is evident that they subdued and assimilated the previous occupants of the country (pp. 171-173).
    Last edited by Stevo; 11 June 2014, 04:56 PM.

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    How would you know? Have you read Anthony's book?

    Have you read Manco's book?

    Have you read The Celtic Realms by Dillon (an Irish scholar) and Chadwick?
    I would like to see the results from ancient dna testing that shows all the Bell Beakers with L21 remains.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    This is all pure speculation.
    How would you know? Have you read Anthony's book?

    Have you read Manco's book?

    Have you read The Celtic Realms by Dillon (an Irish scholar) and Chadwick?

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    From David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel And Language, page 367:



    From Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys, pages 168 and 169:
    This is all pure speculation.

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