Originally posted by Stevo
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Bell Beakers in Ireland
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Originally posted by 1798 View PostYou said that they were finding it difficult to test them for M269 and then they tried to test them for a downstream branch like U106. That does not make sense.
They were, however, able to test both for U106 and determine that both were U106-.
It isn't necessary to reconstitute the entire genome of a set of remains in phylogenetic order to be able to test for specific SNPs.Last edited by Stevo; 13 June 2014, 09:00 AM.
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Originally posted by ironroad41 View PostYou chide others for their sources. I believe that the story of human history has to be rewritten using STR, ADNA and other data, tied in with appropriate Climatological and Archaeological data. For now, I don't even trust Linguistics. What we need is more data, not personal opinion. JMHO.
The climate in Western Europe is the climate in Western Europe. It has little bearing on people who are not there at the time.Last edited by Stevo; 13 June 2014, 08:58 AM.
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Originally posted by Stevo View PostFrom The History of the Celtic People by French archaeologist and inguist Henri Hubert, pages 169 and 171-173:
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Originally posted by Stevo View PostObviously not. It just says they were U106-. We still do not know for what other SNPs downstream of M269 they may have been positive.
We probably never will know either. We're lucky they were able to get as far as they did with such old remains.
We need some really well preserved Beaker remains and a full genome result. Frozen remains would be nice, but the Beaker Folk, as far as I know, did not settle in places where their remains were likely to remain frozen for long.
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Originally posted by 1798 View PostNo, but in the case of Ireland, the manifestation of this complex differs from elsewhere because settlements are comparatively common while stereotypical Beaker burials are rare.
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Originally posted by 1798 View PostI guess that says it all.
We probably never will know either. We're lucky they were able to get as far as they did with such old remains.
We need some really well preserved Beaker remains and a full genome result. Frozen remains would be nice, but the Beaker Folk, as far as I know, did not settle in places where their remains were likely to remain frozen for long.
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Originally posted by Stevo View PostI never claimed all the Beaker men were L21+. For one thing, I don't think they were. But I do think L21 was prevalent among the Beaker Folk who went to the British Isles.
Of the two sets of Beaker remains from the site near Kromsdorf, Germany, one tested M269+, but they could only get as far as M343+ with the other. It's not that the second one was M343*; it's just that they could not get a clear M269+ result from such old remains. They did test both sets of remains for U106, however, and both were clearly U106-.
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Originally posted by 1798 View PostP312 and U106 are 50/50 in Germany among the R1b population.
I looked at the German dna project.
The German Language Area Y-DNA Project is fine, but it is not a scientific study.
The fact remains that the scientists who tested the Beaker remains from Kromsdorf tested them for U106 (they were U106-) but not for P312.
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Originally posted by Stevo View PostI never claimed all the Beaker men were L21+. For one thing, I don't think they were. But I do think L21 was prevalent among the Beaker Folk who went to the British Isles.
Of the two sets of Beaker remains from the site near Kromsdorf, Germany, one tested M269+, but they could only get as far as M343+ with the other. It's not that the second one was M343*; it's just that they could not get a clear M269+ result from such old remains. They did test both sets of remains for U106, however, and both were clearly U106-. I guess they tested them for U106 because the site is in Germany. They may have expected them to be U106+ because U106 is so common there now. They did not even test the remains for P312, let alone L21.
I looked at the German dna project.
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Originally posted by 1798 View PostI would like to see the results from ancient dna testing that shows all the Bell Beakers with L21 remains.
Of the two sets of Beaker remains from the site near Kromsdorf, Germany, one tested M269+, but they could only get as far as M343+ with the other. It's not that the second one was M343*; it's just that they could not get a clear M269+ result from such old remains. They did test both sets of remains for U106, however, and both were clearly U106-. I guess they tested them for U106 because the site is in Germany. They may have expected them to be U106+ because U106 is so common there now. They did not even test the remains for P312, let alone L21.
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From The History of the Celtic People by French archaeologist and inguist Henri Hubert, pages 169 and 171-173:
Originally posted by Henri HubertBut whence did the Goidels come, and when did they come? Where must we look for their earliest home on the Continent and their starting-point? Probably they came from north of the Brythonic domain, and it is to them that tradition refers when it tells that the Celts used to live on the low coasts of the North Sea. They must have left those shores very early, for hardly a trace of them remains there (p. 169).
. . . In the first period of the Bronze Age there arrived in the British Isles, coming from the Continent, people with very marked characteristics. The old Neolithic inhabitants (among whom I include those of all the beginning of the Bronze Age) were long-heads of Mediterranean type, who built for their dead, or, at least, for the more distinguished of them, tumuli with a funeral chamber known as the "long barrows", in which one sometimes finds those curious bell-shaped beakers adorned at regular intervals with bands of incised or stamped decoration, of a very simple and austere type. The newcomers were of quite a different type, and had other funeral practices.
They buried their dead under round tumuli, known as "round barrows", in graves in which the body was placed in a crouching position on one side and enclosed in stone flags or woodwork. Later they burned them. In their graves there were zoned beakers (Fig. 33), but of a late type in which the neck is distinguished from the belly, or vases derived from these beakers . . . The grave goods comprised buttons with a V-shaped boring, flint and copper daggers, arrow-heads, and flat perforated pieces of schist which are "bracers", or bowman's wristguards. The skeletons were of a new type: tall, with round heads of a fairly constant shape, the brow receding, the supraciliary ridge prominent, the cheek-bones highly developed, and the jaws massive and projecting so as to present a dip at the base of the nose. I have already described them as one of the types represented in Celtic burials.
The association of the physical type of this people with the beaker has led British anthropologists to call it the Beaker Folk . . . In Scotland they were accompanied by other brachycephals, with a higher index and of Alpine type. In general they advanced from south to north and from east to west, and their progress lasted long enough for there to be a very marked difference in furniture between their oldest and latest tombs.
. . . Their progress was a conquest. It is evident that they subdued and assimilated the previous occupants of the country (pp. 171-173).Last edited by Stevo; 11 June 2014, 03:56 PM.
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Originally posted by Stevo View PostHow would you know? Have you read Anthony's book?
Have you read Manco's book?
Have you read The Celtic Realms by Dillon (an Irish scholar) and Chadwick?
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