Doggerland

[1798]

Malta Boy was R-M207 and he wasn't born in the Middle East. R1b could have survived in small pockets in western Europe and then mushroomed with coming of farming. Finding remains from Mesolithic R1b in western Europe would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

[Stevo]

Malta Boy was R-M207 and he wasn't born in the Middle East. R1b could have survived in small pockets in western Europe and then mushroomed with coming of farming. Finding remains from Mesolithic R1b in western Europe would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

If R1b "mushroomed" during the Neolithic (i.e., with the coming of farming), why hasn't it been found at any Neolithic sites?

Of the 31 sets of ancient male remains from which y-dna has been successfully recovered at Neolithic sites, all of them in Western Europe, not a single one has been R1b, not even one. Recall that R1b predominates in Western Europe today.

Of the seven sets of Mesolithic male remains successfully y-dna tested, not a single one has been R1b.

Now, it is possible that a Mesolithic or Neolithic R1b could turn up tomorrow; but as more and more ancient y-dna is recovered at Mesolithic and Neolithic sites, that is looking less and less likely.

[ironroad41]

doggerland

I misstated Malt'as Haplotype earlier.Still it places R in Siberia at an early Ice Age point in time. Climatically, at that time and subsequently down to about at least 9K BC, northern Europe, from west to eastern Siberia, had a better climate than parts of southern Europe.

I cannot say precisely where R1b started, I'm still not fully convinced it was only a southern route from asia. Up to the Neolithic, availability of game and seafood drove people to other climes. I would suspect several back and forths from E to W and W to E over the time period of 18K to 6K BC.

Your point is well taken on "no R1b remains of a Mesolithic/early Neolithic have been found in WE". I don't think the population up to the Neolithic was very large in WE, since game was relatively scarce and seafood was gathered mostly in the larger bodies of water. The huge forest that went from France to Siberia didn't support much game; I would liken it to the large non-deciduous forests of the early US, as in northern PA. They don't support wildlife to a great degree.

My major suggestion is that Climatology and existence of food were major factors in the lives of pre-Neolithic man. Further, Major disasters such as the Flood/Tsunami act as erasers of prior history.

[1798]

Lets review the facts (as I understand them): 1. The region of Northern Europe including GB, France, and the low countries had a much milder climate c. 6K to 9K BC. We have no real knowledge of the haplogroups living there in that period? 2. From some remains recovered in caves (reported by Hammer) there is evidence of G Haplogroup in caves in central Europe. I would suggest that any other evidence pre 6K BC was probably destroyed by the Great Flood and the Storegga Tsunami in the regions of interest mentioned above. 3. We have to go to Siberia (Malta'a) to find early R1b and then it is estimated as being 24K BP or BC (I'm not sure). How the R1b got there is not known at present. In a fairly old paper, Dr. Rhys Carpenter, a Climatologist, posited that most of R1b followed the game to the Siberian region c. 18K to 9K BC, when there was an E-W path from northern Europe to Siberia.(note these ideas were postulated prior to DNA analyses).

The point I would make is that we have to include the Great flood and the storegga tsunami in our modeling of how Western Europe was populated. There were probably survivors, but I would guestimate that anyone living in a coastal region from northern Europe into the Mediterranean was severely affected.

The repopulation of Northwestern Europe began slowly about 6KBC. Recent SNP studies suggest that P312 was born c. 6K BP. STR estimates, which are suspect, suggest younger ages for P312 and subclades.

As Hammer points out: Belaresque posits a E/W cline for M269and subclades, Busby disagrees and sees no cline.

In sum, I think we have to include the Great Flood and the Storegga Tsunami and its impact in our thinking; It destroyed humans and the habitat they had lived in. It may have taken 1 to 2K years to rebuild each of them. Call it a discontinuity, call it a bottleneck, it certainly changed the landscape of Britain, Doggerland(gone), the lowlands and the coastal regions of the Mediterranean through to the Black sea.

These bottlenecks that you refer to are small pockets of survivors. If you look at the R1b tree L11,P310 etc. is the most recent one and it must be Mesolithic if P312 is 6000 years old. If L11 was a marker of the farmers, what would be the reason for the bottleneck?

[1798]

P310,L11,L52,L151,YSC0000082, YSC0000191. This is the last bottle neck before the origin of the major subgroups of P312 and u106. Where did this group survive? If it was more than 6000 years ago in western Europe then it was mesolithic?

[T E Peterman]

When trying to ascertain the origins of the R haplogroup, don't just look at the historical distribution of its compoent subclades; also look at the distribution of sibling subclades, like Q & then N, O, M & S. This speaks volumes about a Central to East Asian origin for R.

The most parsimonious explanation for R* in a Siberian boy from some 25,000 years ago is simply that this is where R lived at the time.

A theory that suggests that R1b originated in western Europe & then moved to Siberia for a few thousand years & then returned "home" to western Europe is, though not impossible, rather implausible & not very parsimonious.

The observation that R1b didn't make an appearance until the onset of the bronze age, arriving from Anatolia or the Pontic Steppe is quite consistent with both Central to East Asian origins of R1b & the spread of Indo-European languages.

Most people around Great Britain, Ireland, the low countries, Germany & Scandinavia probably have a huge chunk of ancestry living in Doggerland prior to the Flood, but if such a person's y-DNA is R1b, you can be certain that those Doggerland ancestors were NOT in the person's patriline.

Timothy Peterman

[1798]

When trying to ascertain the origins of the R haplogroup, don't just look at the historical distribution of its compoent subclades; also look at the distribution of sibling subclades, like Q & then N, O, M & S. This speaks volumes about a Central to East Asian origin for R.

The most parsimonious explanation for R* in a Siberian boy from some 25,000 years ago is simply that this is where R lived at the time.

A theory that suggests that R1b originated in western Europe & then moved to Siberia for a few thousand years & then returned "home" to western Europe is, though not impossible, rather implausible & not very parsimonious.

The observation that R1b didn't make an appearance until the onset of the bronze age, arriving from Anatolia or the Pontic Steppe is quite consistent with both Central to East Asian origins of R1b & the spread of Indo-European languages.

Most people around Great Britain, Ireland, the low countries, Germany & Scandinavia probably have a huge chunk of ancestry living in Doggerland prior to the Flood, but if such a person's y-DNA is R1b, you can be certain that those Doggerland ancestors were NOT in the person's patriline.

Timothy Peterman

If you are saying that L11 was born during the Bronze-Age then how could the branch I belong to(Z156) be 5,100 years old? The next branch downstream S5520 has been found only in Scottish and Irish to date.

[Stevo]

When trying to ascertain the origins of the R haplogroup, don't just look at the historical distribution of its compoent subclades; also look at the distribution of sibling subclades, like Q & then N, O, M & S. This speaks volumes about a Central to East Asian origin for R.

The most parsimonious explanation for R* in a Siberian boy from some 25,000 years ago is simply that this is where R lived at the time.

A theory that suggests that R1b originated in western Europe & then moved to Siberia for a few thousand years & then returned "home" to western Europe is, though not impossible, rather implausible & not very parsimonious.

The observation that R1b didn't make an appearance until the onset of the bronze age, arriving from Anatolia or the Pontic Steppe is quite consistent with both Central to East Asian origins of R1b & the spread of Indo-European languages.

Most people around Great Britain, Ireland, the low countries, Germany & Scandinavia probably have a huge chunk of ancestry living in Doggerland prior to the Flood, but if such a person's y-DNA is R1b, you can be certain that those Doggerland ancestors were NOT in the person's patriline.

Timothy Peterman

Very well said.

In my view, R1b arrived in Europe probably as L11 or L23 in the late Neolithic or the Copper Age. It expanded rapidly during the Copper and Bronze Ages and spread with it two other important things that became prevalent in Western Europe at the same time: metallurgy (first copper and then bronze) and Indo-European languages.

The Beaker Folk have long been thought to have been connected to the spread of Indo-European languages, especially Italo-Celtic. The only ancient y-dna yet obtained from a Beaker site was the R1b (and U106-) recovered from two sets of male remains near Kromsdorf, Germany, which is also the oldest R1b yet found in Europe (circa 2600 BC).

[Stevo]

If you are saying that L11 was born during the Bronze-Age then how could the branch I belong to(Z156) be 5,100 years old? The next branch downstream S5520 has been found only in Scottish and Irish to date.

The simplest answer is that it is not that old. This would not be the first time you have made exaggerated claims about the age of this or that clade.

I hope you are not going to turn this thread into another "my branch of U106 is native Irish" thread.

[1798]

The simplest answer is that it is not that old. This would not be the first time you have made exaggerated claims about the age of this or that clade.

I hope you are not going to turn this thread into another "my branch of U106 is native Irish" thread.

You seem to have a problem with this.My branch of U106 is Irish because it originated in Ireland. What part don't you understand?
I have not exaggerated the age of Z156, 34 SNPs x 150 years =5,100.The next SNP downstream for my group is S5520.

[Stevo]

You seem to have a problem with this.My branch of U106 is Irish because it originated in Ireland. What part don't you understand?
I have not exaggerated the age of Z156, 34 SNPs x 150 years =5,100.The next SNP downstream for my group is S5520.

SNP dating is in its infancy, and 150 years per SNP is probably too high a figure and definitely has not been established as accurate yet. The latest figure I heard is approximately (heavy on the approximately) 90 years per SNP, but even that should be taken with a big block of salt.

You are Irish, yes, so, the exact branch of U106 represented by you is Irish, just as I am an American, so the exact branch of P312 represented by me is American.

But U106 and Z156 are not especially Irish. U106 is relatively infrequent in Ireland and, where it is found there, its highest frequencies occur in those places most heavily settled by historic groups like the Vikings, Normans, English, Flemings, Lowland Scots, etc.

You could always start another thread about that to discuss it, since it has nothing to do with Doggerland.

[1798]

SNP dating is in its infancy, and 150 years per SNP is probably too high a figure and definitely has not been established as accurate yet. The latest figure I heard is approximately (heavy on the approximately) 90 years per SNP, but even that should be taken with a big block of salt.

You are Irish, yes, so, the exact branch of U106 represented by you is Irish, just as I am an American, so the exact branch of P312 represented by me is American.

But U106 and Z156 are not especially Irish. U106 is relatively infrequent in Ireland and, where it is found there, its highest frequencies occur in those places most heavily settled by historic groups like the Vikings, Normans, English, Flemings, Lowland Scots, etc.

Michal says that Big-Y SNPs could be 150 years apart and two men in my group have 40 each downstream of Z156.
It is your personal opinion which you seem to like repeating with no evidence. Frequency has nothing to do with origin. Those are your words. R1b frequency in Ireland or Iberia for example.

[N21163]

Michal says that Big-Y SNPs could be 150 years apart and two men in my group have 40 each downstream of Z156.
It is your personal opinion which you seem to like repeating with no evidence. Frequency has nothing to do with origin. Those are your words. R1b frequency in Ireland or Iberia for example.

So your reasoning that your branch of U106 is Irish is based on the fact that you are Irish.

Since you have no genealogical evidence to think otherwise, and do not wish to consider any other possible explanation, you have come to the conclusion that your branch of U106 originated in Ireland.

Is this a fair summation of your position?

[1798]

So your reasoning that your branch of U106 is Irish is based on the fact that you are Irish.

Since you have no genealogical evidence to think otherwise, and do not wish to consider any other possible explanation, you have come to the conclusion that your branch of U106 originated in Ireland.

Is this a fair summation of your position?

It is based on the fact that S5520 has only been found in Scottish and Irish at present with GDs of 28-30 at 67 markers. That could change with more dna tests from other regions.

[ironroad41]

These bottlenecks that you refer to are small pockets of survivors. If you look at the R1b tree L11,P310 etc. is the most recent one and it must be Mesolithic if P312 is 6000 years old. If L11 was a marker of the farmers, what would be the reason for the bottleneck?

As you probably know, the terms Mesolithic and Neolithic are relative terms depending on what part of the world you are talking about. In Western Europe, You might use the period of 10-12K to about 6K as Mesolithic and Neolithic after that to the Bronze, Iron and more modern ages. The spread of the Neolithic is associated with the spread of Farming.

At the same time as Northern Europe was decimated, the Black Sea was flooded and changed to a partial saline environment. Forces such as these cause population decimation and displacements. I'm not sure when and where L11 was born, but he probably wasn't direcly involved, being probably born prior to these events.

Population growth was then slow in WE until 5K to 4K BC, at which time the P312 and subclades began to successfully grow their populations to what we have today.