Doggerland

[Stevo]

I did read it but it doesn't look much different to what is found at the rubbish site Eupedia.

I'm sorry you take such an ill-informed and ill-advised view of Dr. Hammer's presentation, which I think represents the current thinking on European R1b among population geneticists.

I'm wondering what good it does to present you with evidence on this subject. Probably no good.

But then other people read these threads and probably get something out of them.

[N21163]

I'm sorry you take such an ill-informed and ill-advised view of Dr. Hammer's presentation, which I think represents the current thinking on European R1b among population geneticists.

I'm wondering what good it does to present you with evidence on this subject. Probably no good.

But then other people read these threads and probably get something out of them.

Agreed Stevo.
If a few don't take evidence on board, others will.

[1798]

Agreed Stevo.
If a few don't take evidence on board, others will.

What evidence? Mr Hayes is not a genetic scientist.

[Stevo]

What evidence? Mr Hayes is not a genetic scientist.

All the evidence that has been presented to you in this thread, including Dr. Hammer's slide presentation, which sums up the evidence nicely.

Dr. Hammer is a geneticist.

[1798]

All the evidence that has been presented to you in this thread, including Dr. Hammer's slide presentation, which sums up the evidence nicely.

Dr. Hammer is a geneticist.

All the maps are from Eupedia.

[N21163]

All the maps are from Eupedia.

I know Eupedia conflicts with your opinions on various things, including U-106

However their maps are based on results from scientific studies: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin....shtml#Sources

Why would Dr Hammer re-invent the wheel?
If the Eupedia maps reflect the research that has been done and Dr Hammer is able to add to this, then he will use the maps as a resource in his presentation.

The whole point is to add to and improve on research that has already been done.

If you choose not to take developments like this on board then I guess it is your loss.

[1798]

I know Eupedia conflicts with your opinions on various things, including U-106

However their maps are based on results from scientific studies: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin....shtml#Sources

Why would Dr Hammer re-invent the wheel?
If the Eupedia maps reflect the research that has been done and Dr Hammer is able to add to this, then he will use the maps as a resource in his presentation.

The whole point is to add to and improve on research that has already been done.

If you choose not to take developments like this on board then I guess it is your loss.

When Dr.Sykes said that R1b came from Iberia after the Ice-Age why was that rejected and by whom? He is a genetic scientist.There aren't two scientists that can agree on this issue.

[dsm]

Modern bear baiting

The people who know but keep posting (and the several of you know who you are) are really playing a modern game of bear-baiting.

No good comes of it - just leave the bear alone and please move on (said in good humor but with serious intent).

DSM

[N21163]

The people who know but keep posting (and the several of you know who you are) are really playing a modern game of bear-baiting.

No good comes of it - just leave the bear alone and please move on (said in good humor but with serious intent).

DSM

Indeed.....ok I'm washing my hands of it

[Stevo]

When Dr.Sykes said that R1b came from Iberia after the Ice-Age why was that rejected and by whom? He is a genetic scientist.There aren't two scientists that can agree on this issue.

Dr. Sykes said that quite a few years ago, before much was known about the structure of R1b and before any ancient y-dna had been recovered. At that time, most geneticists would have agreed with him. He, Oppenheimer, and others were also using very short haplotypes, sometimes with as few as six STR markers.

Things have changed, and the science has moved on. Dr. Hammer's slide show discusses the progress that has been made and answers your question.

I don't think you are going to find a population geneticist today who knows anything about R1b who subscribes to the old "R1b-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge" idea.

[Stevo]

The people who know but keep posting (and the several of you know who you are) are really playing a modern game of bear-baiting.

No good comes of it - just leave the bear alone and please move on (said in good humor but with serious intent).

DSM

The problem is that newbies read these threads and are led astray by bogus information.

These "Doggerland" threads and the like keep popping up every couple of months.

Answering them is like playing "Whack-a-Mole", but it needs to be done.

[MMaddi]

The people who know but keep posting (and the several of you know who you are) are really playing a modern game of bear-baiting.

No good comes of it - just leave the bear alone and please move on (said in good humor but with serious intent).

DSM

There's a lot of wisdom in what you say and I don't respond very often to 1798's posts. I think all the evidence in the world won't change his mind. His mind is made up because that's what he wishes to believe.

However, consider that newbies who read his posts come away misinformed. They may believe something about R1b in Europe (an important subject) which was a widely held belief several years ago. That belief has been demolished by newer evidence, which others have presented in this and other threads.

In that sense, it is useful to refute 1798's erroneous beliefs. Responses that cite the scientific evidence about R1b in Europe educate newbies that read this and similar threads. So, there is some good, to use your expression, coming out of responding to him.

[Zaru]

To add..

There's a lot of wisdom in what you say and I don't respond very often to 1798's posts. I think all the evidence in the world won't change his mind. His mind is made up because that's what he wishes to believe.

However, consider that newbies who read his posts come away misinformed. They may believe something about R1b in Europe (an important subject) which was a widely held belief several years ago. That belief has been demolished by newer evidence, which others have presented in this and other threads.

In that sense, it is useful to refute 1798's erroneous beliefs. Responses that cite the scientific evidence about R1b in Europe educate newbies that read this and similar threads. So, there is some good, to use your expression, coming out of responding to him.

This is the general problem with any facet of genealogical research.

[mjaMahé]

MjaMahe: You have a great sense of humor. LOL

Thank you very much: D

[dsm]

Bear baiting

There's a lot of wisdom in what you say and I don't respond very often to 1798's posts. I think all the evidence in the world won't change his mind. His mind is made up because that's what he wishes to believe.

However, consider that newbies who read his posts come away misinformed. They may believe something about R1b in Europe (an important subject) which was a widely held belief several years ago. That belief has been demolished by newer evidence, which others have presented in this and other threads.

In that sense, it is useful to refute 1798's erroneous beliefs. Responses that cite the scientific evidence about R1b in Europe educate newbies that read this and similar threads. So, there is some good, to use your expression, coming out of responding to him.

Yes good point. I would contend though, that most observant folk even newbies, will have worked out what is happening way back in t5his thread. By continually baiting the bear roars and bites out again, then that simply keeps the cycle going. When the baiting stops the debate should end. No one then needs to have to deal with further baited responses.

I do know where 1798 is coming from even if I don't agree with points being made by 1798. It is very hard for people who read Oppenheimer's books then get told since he wrote it, it is now agreed that R1b weren't the ones repopulating the west coast of Britain/Ireland/Scotland after the LGM - That is where 1798 is imprisoned. Repeated baiting only induces wilder reactions. I say let it go. DSM