Doggerland

[MMaddi]

No ancient R1b remains have been found in the Middle East to date so what is the reason that you think that R1b came from there? Is it because some scientists think that P originated there?

Most people think of the area from the Arabian peninsula north to Turkey when "Middle East" is mentioned. If that's what you mean by "Middle East," in my view that's not the only candidate for the origin of R1b. So, I'm not sure why you're putting words in my mouth, making it seem as if I think that's where R1b originated.

The usual understanding of "Middle East" certainly is a possibility for where R1b originated. However, I think we should also consider nearby locations, slightly to the east and north. Think of the Caucasus or present day Iran or neighboring Afghanistan/Pakistan. Basically, the area from Turkey to western Afghanistan/Pakistan.

I do think that it's a good possibility that R1b entered Europe from Anatolia and the Caucasus in the Neolithic, but also that a later wave entered Europe from the steppes north of the Black Sea. I think the second wave may be the ancestors of the Bronze Age R1b that came to dominate Europe.

In any event, most of the DNA studies of ancient remains, at least in the Neolithic period, have been done in Europe, not the Middle East. So, I don't know how many results we have from Middle Eastern remains, but they're relatively few compared to European remains.

There are a couple of interesting studies just published which Dienekes has blogged about that shed some new light on the geography and chronology of Eurasian haplogroups.

The first one is a study - see http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/06...up-k-m526.html - that has some breakthrough SNP discoveries related to haplogroup K, which is the gg-granddad, so to speak, of R and Q, via P. It shows that with the discovery of these new SNPs, the K haplotree is firmly rooted in southeast Asia and that P and its sons R and Q are more closely tied to that geographic origin than thought before. The abstract says, "Interestingly, the monophyletic group formed by haplogroups R and Q, which make up the majority of paternal lineages in Europe, Central Asia and the Americas, represents the only subclade with K2b that is not geographically restricted to Southeast Asia and Oceania. [my bolding] Estimates of the interval times for the branching events between M9 [SNP defining K] and P295 [defines P] point to an initial rapid diversification process of K-M526 [defines K2, P is actually K2b2] that likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q [my bolding]." (This is something that Dr. Hammer referred to in his November presentation on R-M269.) So, this study is firmly placing P, father of R, very far to the east, which gives its descendant haplogroups a very long (geographically and timewise) trip to reach Europe.

The second study - see http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/06...age-altai.html - deals with the results of DNA testing of remains from Bronze Age Altai, again far to the east of Europe. For both yDNA and mtDNA, the haplogroups found (although none are R1b) are a mix of east and west Eurasian. This shows, as late as the Bronze Age, some genetic flow from between Europe and east Asia. That may indicate that at that time R1b may have still been found at a good percentage between Europe and east Asia - in Central Asia.

So, the first study is telling us that R and its subclades certainly had a long way to go to reach Europe. And the second study hints, at least by my inference, that perhaps R1b in the Bronze Age might be found somewhere between Europe and east Asia, perhaps in the area of the steppes.

[ironroad41]

Gioeillo believes that just about every haplogroup found in Europe today originated in Italy. That includes haplogroups and subclades, both yDNA and mtDNA, which population geneticists tell us originated in the Middle East.

Gioiello has also been banned from several genetic genealogy forums because of postings which seem to be anti-semitic. I believe that he's not necessarily anti-semitic, but that his hostility to the idea that certain European haplogroups originated in the Middle East (not in Italy as he believes) "sets him off," which is the cause of his seeming anti-semitism.

To summarize, his record hardly gives me the impression that his theories should be taken seriously. Frankly, I think his ideas are motivated by a nationalist agenda. And I say this as someone who has 100% Italian ancestry and is proud of that.




Well, it's more than a little odd that no R1b has been found in ancient European remains before about 4,600 years ago. You can offer all sorts of theories about why that is, but the lack of R1b is certainly making any idea that it must have been in Europe very suspect. Until some R1b is found in European Neolithic or older remains, all theories placing it in Europe before the Bronze Age are speculation which go against the evidence we do have.



As has been put forward on this subject many times in many threads, the evidence from ancient remains so far is that in the period of 5,000-7,000 years ago the clear majority haplogroup among European men was G2. There's less data for the haplogroup of more ancient European remains, but I believe that the haplogroup of at least one such result is I2. I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Let me try a different approach. I have been around long enough to be familiar with most of the arguments you present, however I am not fully persuaded.

Consider the druids. It is commonly believed that they built many stone structures in the period 2K to 3K BC. Many of them in the Isles. They represent the "soul" of Celticism. They were an anathema to Rome, who destroyed their temples, and hounded them until c. 80 AD, Rome destroyed their University on Anglesby (sp) Island. Stonehenge is commonly believed to have had religious significance.

Where did they come from? The Near East?? When and where did they establish their religion. If they were moving huge megaliths of blue stone to Stonehenge prior to 3K BC, what does that imply? It takes time to create a religious ethos, it takes organization to build a university (c.2500 BC) and develop a 20+ year oral curriculum. Finally, I believe they were predominantly R1b? AFIK there is no record of Celts in the near East, so I don't think that's where it started.

[1798]

As has been put forward on this subject many times in many threads, the evidence from ancient remains so far is that in the period of 5,000-7,000 years ago the clear majority haplogroup among European men was G2. There's less data for the haplogroup of more ancient European remains, but I believe that the haplogroup of at least one such result is I2. I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that.

No ancient R1b remains have been found in the Middle East to date so what is the reason that you think that R1b came from there? Is it because some scientists think that P originated there?

[MMaddi]

I don't believe Gioiello knows how long his family has been in Northern Italy. It's enough to know that L51 is found there, admittedly sparsely. As you say there is no proof, but it is a fair hypothesis, which needs to be substantiated.

Gioeillo believes that just about every haplogroup found in Europe today originated in Italy. That includes haplogroups and subclades, both yDNA and mtDNA, which population geneticists tell us originated in the Middle East.

Gioiello has also been banned from several genetic genealogy forums because of postings which seem to be anti-semitic. I believe that he's not necessarily anti-semitic, but that his hostility to the idea that certain European haplogroups originated in the Middle East (not in Italy as he believes) "sets him off," which is the cause of his seeming anti-semitism.

To summarize, his record hardly gives me the impression that his theories should be taken seriously. Frankly, I think his ideas are motivated by a nationalist agenda. And I say this as someone who has 100% Italian ancestry and is proud of that.

The fact that no R1b remains have been found to date is a little odd, especially in western Europe. I was trained in Physics, I was taught that forces cause displacements I infer that significant climate changes have changed the distribution many of the haplogroups. There is a ton of data supporting the fact that northern Europe was much warmer in the early Holocene till about 8KBP. In fact it appears that there was a corridor from the Atlantic to Siberia, that was occupied by many prehistoric animals and man.

Well, it's more than a little odd that no R1b has been found in ancient European remains before about 4,600 years ago. You can offer all sorts of theories about why that is, but the lack of R1b is certainly making any idea that it must have been in Europe very suspect. Until some R1b is found in European Neolithic or older remains, all theories placing it in Europe before the Bronze Age are speculation which go against the evidence we do have.

The fly in the ointment is: what haplogroup(s) occupied that area during the pre Flood/Tsunami era??

As has been put forward on this subject many times in many threads, the evidence from ancient remains so far is that in the period of 5,000-7,000 years ago the clear majority haplogroup among European men was G2. There's less data for the haplogroup of more ancient European remains, but I believe that the haplogroup of at least one such result is I2. I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that.

[ironroad41]

There is a poster at dienekes.blogspot.com that wants to prove that Amerindians are the ancestors of Asians instead of Amerindians being descendants of Asians or some weird hypothesis like that. He has been very consistent over the years. There is no piece of evidence that can dissuade him. Do you think he has something in what he says? Is that hypothesis now all of the sudden more believable than the current hypothesis that Native Americans descend from people that crossed from Asia over the Bering land bridge?

I can't really comment on the origin of the native Americans except to point out that the Olmec culture heads sure seem to have negroid features? Additionally, in Mazatlan, Mexico, where I winter, there is a little village to the North, that has thousands of stones carved with hieroglyphs of some sort. Similarly, Isle Royale has been mined for Copper for up to 10K years. There are a lot of "unsolved" mysteries around.




That's one hypothesis based on speculation.

No worse than many I have read?

Remains can come from weird places at times. They don't necessarily have to have been buried.

No comment.



I am also hoping the issue will be resolved soon. There are new finds announced yearly it seems. It's standard now to do DNA testing on any remains that are found and they are perfecting the process to prevent decayed matter to affect the results and also to prevent contamination. I'm hoping that they will also be able to test for the latest published SNP markers.

I also hope that a good/calibrated way to use STR's or SNP's to estimate TMRCA's will be developed. The latest discussions of what makes Palindromic STR's sets mutate is good evidence we still don't understand enough about the mutational process, what it is, how and why it does what it does are all TBD?

sorry about the poor placement of the answers. I am not an adept when it comes to using this word processor pkg.

[1798]

I don't believe that the population of WE is defined by the "Neolithic Advance from the East"??

I think that you are right but the it will take a lot to convince some people. There must be a lot of men named Thomas writing on the forums.

[1798]

The data itself supports the hypothesis that they put forward. There is no proof of an agenda. There are numerous S116/P312 maps because there are more subclades of P312 identified than there are of U106.

It seems to me that Myres didn't know a lot about U106 then. There are at least 100 subclades.

[Armando]

You are correct, the link between DNA and geography is very tenuous. I know what Rathna wants to prove, he has been quite consistent over the years and as The L51 thread implied, he may have something in what he says?

There is a poster at dienekes.blogspot.com that wants to prove that Amerindians are the ancestors of Asians instead of Amerindians being descendants of Asians or some weird hypothesis like that. He has been very consistent over the years. There is no piece of evidence that can dissuade him. Do you think he has something in what he says? Is that hypothesis now all of the sudden more believable than the current hypothesis that Native Americans descend from people that crossed from Asia over the Bering land bridge?

Whatever Hg was in Northern Italy during the period 8K BC to 6K BC probably survived the "storm" and then may have migrated to Iberia/Switzerland in that same period. Western England/Ireland may have been the end of the trail for some of those persons?

That's one hypothesis based on speculation.

You claim the only "Irrefutable proof" is to find a burial site with remains. You may be right, but at the present time we don't have one. All we have is estimates from STR and SNP dating, and both have their problems at present.

Remains can come from weird places at times. They don't necessarily have to have been buried.

We have quite a bit of data from 4K BC onward. It is from the early Holocene to 4K BC that we are stumped and I believe that was due to the ending of the Ice Age and artifacts of that event.There may have been many migrations E/W and W/E during the period of 9K BC to 6K BC, but all we have are Malt'a man and the remains of wooly mammoths in Siberia( which use to roam WE along with other large game.) I am optimistic that with time and luck, these issues of who was where and when he/she was there will get sorted out?

I am also hoping the issue will be resolved soon. There are new finds announced yearly it seems. It's standard now to do DNA testing on any remains that are found and they are perfecting the process to prevent decayed matter to affect the results and also to prevent contamination. I'm hoping that they will also be able to test for the latest published SNP markers.

[ironroad41]

I think that Gioiello is L51* and that he has good reason to believe that it has its origins in Italy.
We all know that R1b hasn't been found in ancient remains in western Europe or anywhere else in the world either.

I don't believe Gioiello knows how long his family has been in Northern Italy. It's enough to know that L51 is found there, admittedly sparsely. As you say there is no proof, but it is a fair hypothesis, which needs to be substantiated.

The fact that no R1b remains have been found to date is a little odd, especially in western Europe. I was trained in Physics, I was taught that forces cause displacements I infer that significant climate changes have changed the distribution many of the haplogroups. There is a ton of data supporting the fact that northern Europe was much warmer in the early Holocene till about 8KBP. In fact it appears that there was a corridor from the Atlantic to Siberia, that was occupied by many prehistoric animals and man.

The above, combined with the data concerning the storegga Tsunami, can be used to construct a model of what occurred..

The fly in the ointment is: what haplogroup(s) occupied that area during the pre Flood/Tsunami era??

All of this discussion is probably off topic from the theme of this blog, but without some understanding of what went on in Western Europe, climatologically during the early Holocene, we cannot generate a valid model of subsequent activities. I don't believe that the population of WE is defined by the "Neolithic Advance from the East"??

[Armando]

I think that Gioiello is L51* and that he has good reason to believe that it has its origins in Italy.

He has no irrefutable evidence to back up his claim.

We all know that R1b hasn't been found in ancient remains in western Europe or anywhere else in the world either.

A grave from 2600–2500 BC in Kromsdorf, Germany was found with an individual that was M343, M269, (x S21/U106). So yes, R1b has been found in ancient remains in western Europe. This was already explained to you by Stevo. http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...&postcount=120

Every year finds are being announced and it seems it is only a matter of time until more ancient remains are found that are R1b. Until then the two hypotheses are based on speculation and conjecture.

[Armando]

It seems like there was some kind of agenda in this study.There are six maps of P312 and one of U106. In your posts you seem to want to put some distance between your group and U106. You are saying that U106 originated east of Rhine to make it fit with some theory of yours.You wouldn't like it then if it was proved that my branch of U106 originated in the Isles.

The data itself supports the hypothesis that they put forward. There is no proof of an agenda. There are numerous S116/P312 maps because there are more subclades of P312 identified than there are of U106.

I do not care to put distance between U106 and any other group. I want to state facts and put forward hard data that was collected by academics and published in a peer review study that anyone can read and debate.

I am stating facts and using it to show it fits a hypothesis put forward by others. I don't care which hypothesis is correct. I don't care one iota where U106 originated. I care that the circumstantial evidence is presented for all readers so they can see for themselves that neither of the two hypotheses have been proven by facts. That is what is important here.

[1798]

You are correct, the link between DNA and geography is very tenuous. I know what Rathna wants to prove, he has been quite consistent over the years and as The L51 thread implied, he may have something in what he says?

Whatever Hg was in Northern Italy during the period 8K BC to 6K BC probably survived the "storm" and then may have migrated to Iberia/Switzerland in that same period. Western England/Ireland may have been the end of the trail for some of those persons?

You claim the only "Irrefutable proof" is to find a burial site with remains. You may be right, but at the present time we don't have one. All we have is estimates from STR and SNP dating, and both have their problems at present.

We have quite a bit of data from 4K BC onward. It is from the early Holocene to 4K BC that we are stumped and I believe that was due to the ending of the Ice Age and artifacts of that event.There may have been many migrations E/W and W/E during the period of 9K BC to 6K BC, but all we have are Malt'a man and the remains of wooly mammoths in Siberia( which use to roam WE along with other large game.) I am optimistic that with time and luck, these issues of who was where and when he/she was there will get sorted out?

I think that Gioiello is L51* and that he has good reason to believe that it has its origins in Italy.
We all know that R1b hasn't been found in ancient remains in western Europe or anywhere else in the world either.

[1798]

The Netherlands is on the same side of the Rhine as the other countries that have U106 as a proportionally higher SNP when compared with P312/S116. Belgium is right next to Netherlands so that is exception. Therefore your statement has no bearing on the argument because it does not change the fact that the further west you go P312/S116 becomes a larger percentage of R1b than U106 and just east of the Rhine U106 is a larger percentage of R1b. Here is a map of the Myres study that has U106 and P312/S116. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...2010146f1b.jpg

It seems like there was some kind of agenda in this study.There are six maps of P312 and one of U106. In your posts you seem to want to put some distance between your group and U106. You are saying that U106 originated east of Rhine to make it fit with some theory of yours.You wouldn't like it then if it was proved that my branch of U106 originated in the Isles.

[ironroad41]

I have nothing against Rathna but he is an Italian that wants to prove western European R1b started in Italy. Anthrogenica isn't the only place he posts. If you start with a bias all results will prove your bias correct. There is no problem as long as he has irrefutable proof. He doesn't have that yet.

It is interesting that there is a thread and projects that deal with L51(xL11) but unless it can be proven with ancient remains that L51(xL11) existed in western Europe in the Mesolithic it doesn't prove that it didn't come from the east at the beginning of the Neolithic.

You are correct, the link between DNA and geography is very tenuous. I know what Rathna wants to prove, he has been quite consistent over the years and as The L51 thread implied, he may have something in what he says?

Whatever Hg was in Northern Italy during the period 8K BC to 6K BC probably survived the "storm" and then may have migrated to Iberia/Switzerland in that same period. Western England/Ireland may have been the end of the trail for some of those persons?

You claim the only "Irrefutable proof" is to find a burial site with remains. You may be right, but at the present time we don't have one. All we have is estimates from STR and SNP dating, and both have their problems at present.

We have quite a bit of data from 4K BC onward. It is from the early Holocene to 4K BC that we are stumped and I believe that was due to the ending of the Ice Age and artifacts of that event.There may have been many migrations E/W and W/E during the period of 9K BC to 6K BC, but all we have are Malt'a man and the remains of wooly mammoths in Siberia( which use to roam WE along with other large game.) I am optimistic that with time and luck, these issues of who was where and when he/she was there will get sorted out?

[Armando]

I would strongly suggest that both of you read the R1b L51 thread on Anthrogenica. It was started in early April and the last post is by R. Wing today. Especially read some of Rathnas comments re: the origin of R L11, and its age and its presence (origin) in Northern Italy with a subsequent migration to Iberia and then Ireland. It asserts the point of origin for L11 and some of its early travels. good read and pertinent to this discussion.

I have nothing against Rathna but he is an Italian that wants to prove western European R1b started in Italy. Anthrogenica isn't the only place he posts. If you start with a bias all results will prove your bias correct. There is no problem as long as he has irrefutable proof. He doesn't have that yet.

It is interesting that there is a thread and projects that deal with L51(xL11) but unless it can be proven with ancient remains that L51(xL11) existed in western Europe in the Mesolithic it doesn't prove that it didn't come from the east at the beginning of the Neolithic.